The Proper Way For A Catholic To Address A Member Of The Anglican Cler

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Note: Sorry for the typo in the title of this forum. I've tried to fix it several times, but the "fixes" don't show up.

US Airways posted this question in a phorum to which I am not allowed to reply. However, as an Anglican, I feel I can add SOMETHING to this conversation.

The original question was whether it is proper for a Catholics to address a member of the Anglican clergy as "Father."

The answer is--Do what makes you most comfortable. If it's a simple greeting, use no title at all. Just say "Hello."

If you are having a longer conversation, tell the member of the clergy that you are Catholic and not comfortable using the title "Father" and simply ask them how they would like to be addressed. The chances are very good that they have encountered this issue before, and will simply tell you to do what is most comfortable for you.

BTW--Despite my different opinion on the authority of the Pope, if I were to meet him, I would wear the same dress (including veil), follow all the same practices, and address him the same way as the Catholics present would. To me, it is simply a gesture of respect for the Catholic faith.

I would do the same in a Jewish service, and follow what everyone else was doing, without calling attention to theological differences--again, simple respect.

To USAirways--Do I smell or something? What is with you and Anglicans today? And, why did you deliberately post your question in a phorum where I would not be allowed to answer?

Edited March 28, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='27 March 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1269733473' post='2081620']
To USAirways--Do I smell or something? What is with you and Anglicans today? And, why did you deliberately post your question in a phorum where I would not be allowed to answer?
[/quote]
Not sure, sometimes statistical anomalies occur.

But yes, I posted there because I was looking for a scholarly and Catholic opinion on the matter - it's nothing personal.

I explained myself further on the other thread you created.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='27 March 2010 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1269734385' post='2081644']
Not sure, sometimes statistical anomalies occur. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

But yes, I posted there because I was looking for a scholarly and Catholic opinion on the matter - it's nothing personal.

I explained myself further on the other thread you created.
[/quote]


Okay, I forgive you--although people post scholarly and Catholic opinions in the Debate forum, too.

But, as I said before, if you feel uncomfortable adressing the member of the clergy as "Father," then don't. I'm sure the two of you can come up with some other title that both of you feel comfortable with. Even Anglo-Catholics don't tend to be that hardcore about the proper way to address them, and I'm sure the member of the clergy would understand your concerns. If they don't, well, that's their problem, not yours.

Edited March 28, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='27 March 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1269735221' post='2081659']
Okay, I forgive you--although people post scholarly and Catholic opinions in the Debate forum, too.
[/quote]
This is true, however phatmassers are keen on creating debates on topics that aren't even controversial (typically by a controversial point on a tangential matter). I wasn't really in the mood for a debate tonight, so I figured I'd just cut out the middle man.

[Nihil Obstat]

[size="1"](I wonder what's going to happen when she realizes that we refuse to refer to Anglican communities as "Churches"..... )[/size]

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 March 2010 - 07:39 PM' timestamp='1269736765' post='2081682']
[size="1"](I wonder what's going to happen when she realizes that we refuse to refer to Anglican communities as "Churches"..... [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img] )[/size]
[/quote]

I'll just pretend I didn't hear that.

I've made a choice to respect beliefs that aren't completely in agreement with mine. Heck, I also respect certain non-Christian beliefs, such as Judaism. What you choose to do is up to you.

But "smugness" is a sin in my book--it assumes that you understand God as perfectly as Jesus did. I figure that, as human beings, none of us can come close to fully understanding God, so most of us are just trying to do the best we can. Even individuals in the Catholic church over the centuries have fallen far short, no matter how dogmatic the beliefs they espouse. I'm sure the late Cardinal Cody of Chicago was very dogmatic in what he preached, even as he kept a mistress in fur coats and a condo in Miami. I'm not saying that all Catholics are hypocrites by ANY means, just that I personally have become wary of dogmatism and instead have tried to become more humble, because there is still SO MUCH I have to learn about God.

BTW--I'm getting very close to leaving after many of the comments tonight. I think I've been pretty good at showing respect and listening, and taking what is said here seriously. But, if the Phatmass is so self-righteous and perfect that it can't accept even people who are respectful of the posters' beliefs, I'm outta here. I've learned to realize where I'm not welcome. I won't kid myself that anyone will even notice I'm gone, and you can go back to "preaching to the choir."

Sorry to take all this out on you nihil. You've always been very nice to me. It's just that it's been coming to a head over the past few hours.

Unlike what is said at the top of the debate forum, apparently non-Catholics are NOT welcome.

Edited March 28, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='27 March 2010 - 09:20 PM' timestamp='1269739254' post='2081704']
I've made a choice to respect beliefs that aren't completely in agreement with mine. Heck, I also respect certain non-Christian beliefs, such as Judaism. What you choose to do is up to you. [/quote]
I of course respect everyone's beliefs as well. It would be an unpleasant life if I didn't.
That said, I don't pretend - and I'm not insinuating that you do - that everyone else thinks my beliefs are right. I fully expect Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus, people who adhere to Aboriginal Australian beliefs, and so forth to believe that the Catholic Church is false, because there is one Truth, and everyone believes they have it. I've yet to meet someone who believes that their truth is false.
[quote]
But "smugness" is a sin in my book--it assumes that you understand God as perfectly as Jesus did. I figure that, as human beings, none of us can come close to fully understanding God, so most of us are just trying to do the best we can. Even individuals in the Catholic church over the centuries have fallen far short, no matter how dogmatic the beliefs they espouse. I'm sure the late Cardinal Cody of Chicago was very dogmatic in what he preached, even as he kept a mistress in fur coats and a condo in Miami. I'm not saying that all Catholics are hypocrites by ANY means, just that I personally have become wary of dogmatism and instead have tried to become more humble, because there is still SO MUCH I have to learn about God.
[/quote]
I think you're mixing up the Faith with the Faithful. If someone comes to me and tells me that they're perfect, I'd laugh in their face. However, according to our beliefs, the Catholic Church is flawless and perfect. Her adherents are not perfect and Her ministers are not perfect, but She, in and of Herself, is perfect. She was founded by God on the rock of St. Peter in 33 AD, and has been guided by God from then until now, and from now until the end of time. It is due to this fact that no act of iniquity that I nor any other Catholic or non Catholic commit could ever make Her less than perfect.

Ercole Cardinal Consalvi was an Italian cardinal contemporary to Napoleon. When he found out what Napoleon had said in regards to the Church (Je détruirai votre église - I will destroy your church), the cardinal responded "He will not succeed; not even we have managed to do that!" That sums up the phenomenon in question quite nicely.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='27 March 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1269739254' post='2081704']
I'll just pretend I didn't hear that.

I've made a choice to respect beliefs that aren't completely in agreement with mine. Heck, I also respect certain non-Christian beliefs, such as Judaism. What you choose to do is up to you.

But "smugness" is a sin in my book--it assumes that you understand God as perfectly as Jesus did. I figure that, as human beings, none of us can come close to fully understanding God, so most of us are just trying to do the best we can. Even individuals in the Catholic church over the centuries have fallen far short, no matter how dogmatic the beliefs they espouse. I'm sure the late Cardinal Cody of Chicago was very dogmatic in what he preached, even as he kept a mistress in fur coats and a condo in Miami. I'm not saying that all Catholics are hypocrites by ANY means, just that I personally have become wary of dogmatism and instead have tried to become more humble, because there is still SO MUCH I have to learn about God.

BTW--I'm getting very close to leaving after many of the comments tonight. I think I've been pretty good at showing respect and listening, and taking what is said here seriously. But, if the Phatmass is so self-righteous and perfect that it can't accept even people who are respectful of the posters' beliefs, I'm outta here. I've learned to realize where I'm not welcome. I won't kid myself that anyone will even notice I'm gone, and you can go back to "preaching to the choir."

Sorry to take all this out on you nihil. You've always been very nice to me. It's just that it's been coming to a head over the past few hours.

Unlike what is said at the top of the debate forum, apparently non-Catholics are NOT welcome.
[/quote]

I thought things were going kind of well.

The problem isn't that we don't want to respect any other religious traditions. The problem is that our Faith, taken seriously, puts certain restrictions on how we say things, so as to avoid any kind of relativism or indifferentism.

Part of the Catholic Faith tells us that Protestantism does not have valid orders. Therefore, we believe that an Anglican 'priest' is not truly a Christian priest. What the OP addresses is that to call an Anglican 'priest' "father" could imply that you accept his ordination as valid, which we cannot, without contradicting the Church. It is a really tricky scenario, which I haven't had to face... and I'm not sure how I'll handle it when I do. Just honestly, I guess, and if the person is offended, then I'll have learned something.


Conclusion: Please don't leave.

[zunshynn]

[quote]To USAirways--Do I smell or something? What is with you and Anglicans today? And, why did you deliberately post your question in a phorum where I would not be allowed to answer?
[/quote]

You're assuming that he posted in the Q&A forum to snub you, but he wasn't. Why is asking a question to clarify the ideal way to address differences between different faiths a sign that there is some lack of respect or that he has an "issue" with Anglicans? The Q&A forum exists to give people concise answers from people that are trained to answer questions about Church teaching, rather than give opinions. Quite frankly, I don't think he needs to be "forgiven" for anything. He didn't do anything to offend you... My guess is that it hadn't even occurred to him that you would be upset because you couldn't respond. He asked about a situation with Anglicans because he's going to be meeting with an Anglican minister, not because he was looking for ways to offend any Anglican members of the phorum. He might have just as easily asked about how it would be appropriate to address a priest or minister of another Christian denomination, and it would be meant just as innocently.

As Catholics, we realize that although we want to respect people of other faith, we want to be careful to always express, first and foremost, our faith in the sacraments, and in the Catholic Church. It would be dishonest and sometimes scandalous if we were not to do so. Sometimes the best way to do that is to ask those who would know what the general precedent is in such situations. That does not, however, have anything to do with a lack of respect.

Edited March 28, 2010 by zunshynn

[Winchester]

Depends if they have a PO Box or not.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='27 March 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1269740342' post='2081712']
I of course respect everyone's beliefs as well. It would be an unpleasant life if I didn't.
That said, I don't pretend - and I'm not insinuating that you do - that everyone else thinks my beliefs are right. I fully expect Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus, people who adhere to Aboriginal Australian beliefs, and so forth to believe that the Catholic Church is false, because there is one Truth, and everyone believes they have it. I've yet to meet someone who believes that their truth is false.

I think you're mixing up the Faith with the Faithful. If someone comes to me and tells me that they're perfect, I'd laugh in their face. However, according to our beliefs, the Catholic Church is flawless and perfect. Her adherents are not perfect and Her ministers are not perfect, but She, in and of Herself, is perfect. She was founded by God on the rock of St. Peter in 33 AD, and has been guided by God from then until now, and from now until the end of time. It is due to this fact that no act of iniquity that I nor any other Catholic or non Catholic commit could ever make Her less than perfect.

Ercole Cardinal Consalvi was an Italian cardinal contemporary to Napoleon. When he found out what Napoleon had said in regards to the Church (Je détruirai votre église - I will destroy your church), the cardinal responded "He will not succeed; not even we have managed to do that!" That sums up the phenomenon in question quite nicely.
[/quote]


I've got lots to say and I'm tired, so I'm not going to say it well. Even at my best, I am not a theologian, so I wll always lose a theological argument.

But, unlike you, God has not spoken to me and has not given me the gift of faith, so for now, all I can do is search and study. And, without the gift of faith, I don't KNOW what is true, as you do. God is still far past my understanding. I don't know if I have the one truth or not. As I have said earlier in other posts, I am in the midst of a 6+ year "dark night of the soul" and feel a lot like Job (except the locusts came last year, not this year--the dead locust bodies cover the ground so you "crunch" when you walk--totally gross).

I am here at Phatmass because there is an 80-year old religious sister who lives across the street who is the happiest, most content person I know. She never talks theology--she doesn't need to, it comes out in everything she says and does. I'm trying to understand where this comes from, and if it's even possible that I can ever have even a fraction of her faith and happiness, and it feels disrespectful to ask her such personal questions.

Since Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves, there should be a lot of love here on Phatmass. Jesus didn't reserve his love only for those who had already decided to follow him. He fed the 5,000 not the 500 believers. Jesus never compromised on his beliefs, but he made unbelievers so comfortable and welcome that they wanted to be around him and listen to what he had to say. To me THAT is the essence of the Church, too--that it has something so special that people WANT to be a part of it. Rules and standards are necessary (I don't believe in situational ethics), but when rules and standards get in the way of expressing love and make others feel that they are inferior beings because they don't follow all the rules (even rules they've never heard of), that's when I have a problem. I don't pretend to have an answer.

I learned a lot about this community tonight when I even hinted that I don't share all Catholic beliefs, even though I've done my best to be respectful Catholic beliefs and share most of them. The reaction to that taught me a lot. Perhaps this site is better for "preaching to the choir" than being a witness of Christ's love simply by how you treat visitors who aren't exactly like you.

Perhaps I was wrong to come to Phatmass. I don't know. I'll sleep on it tonight.

Thank-you for listening. And, please forgive me for expressing my frustrations as part of a post to you--it's not personal.

Edited March 28, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='27 March 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1269743256' post='2081758']
I've got lots to say and I'm tired, so I'm not going to say it well. Even at my best, I am not a theologian, so I wll always lose a theological argument.

But, unlike you, God has not spoken to me and has not given me the gift of faith, so for now, all I can do is search and study. And, without the gift of faith, I don't KNOW what is true, as you do. God is still far past my understanding. I don't know if I have the one truth or not.

I am here specifically because there is an 80-year old religious sister who lives across the street who is the happiest, most content person I know. She never talks theology--she doesn't need to, it comes out in everything she says and does. I'm trying to understand where this comes from, and if it's even possible that I can ever have even a fraction of her faith and happiness, and it feels disrespectful to ask her such personal questions.

Since Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves, there should be a lot of love here on Phatmass. Jesus didn't reserve his love only for those who had already decided to follow him. He fed the 5,000 not the 500 believers. Jesus never compromised on his beliefs, but he made unbelievers so comfortable and welcome that they wanted to be around him and listen to what he had to say. To me THAT is the essence of the Church, too--that it has something so special that people WANT to be a part of it. Rules and standards are necessary (I don't believe in situational ethics), but when rules and standards get in the way of expressing love and make others feel that they are inferior beings because they don't follow all the rules (even rules they've never heard of), that's when I have a problem. I don't pretend to have an answer.

I learned a lot about this community tonight when I even hinted that I don't share all Catholic beliefs, even though I've done my best to be respectful Catholic beliefs and share most of them. The reaction to that taught me a lot. Perhaps this site is better for "preaching to the choir" than being a witness of Christ's love simply by how you treat visitors who aren't exactly like you.

Perhaps I was wrong to come to Phatmass. I don't know. I'll sleep on it tonight.

Thank-you for listening. And, please forgive me for expressing my frustrations as part of a post to you--it's not personal.
[/quote]
I agree that you should sleep on it. All of us have had major disagreements with someone at least once while we've been here.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='27 March 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1269743256' post='2081758']Jesus never compromised on his beliefs, but he made unbelievers so comfortable and welcome that they wanted to be around him and listen to what he had to say. [/quote]
Ah, but He didn't.
He pushed people far beyond their comfort zones. He stood up to the status quo and made a lot of people skeptical of Him.
When He told the young man to sell all of his belongings (Mat 19:21), he decided that this new guy wasn't good enough and that he liked his gold more. Jesus did not propose an easy path, nor did He follow one.

And I'm not saying that love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and the other fruits don't come from following the commandments, but that's a second-tier effect of being a Christian.
[quote]Thank-you for listening. And, please forgive me for expressing my frustrations as part of a post to you--it's not personal.
[/quote]
I didn't take it personally.

Edited March 28, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='27 March 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1269733473' post='2081620']
US Airways posted this question in a phorum to which I am not allowed to reply. [/quote]
Don't take it personally, only priests and people with degrees in theology can answer questions in the Q&A forum.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='27 March 2010 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1269740943' post='2081724']
You're assuming that he posted in the Q&A forum to snub you, but he wasn't. Why is asking a question to clarify the ideal way to address differences between different faiths a sign that there is some lack of respect or that he has an "issue" with Anglicans? The Q&A forum exists to give people concise answers from people that are trained to answer questions about Church teaching, rather than give opinions. Quite frankly, I don't think he needs to be "forgiven" for anything. He didn't do anything to offend you... My guess is that it hadn't even occurred to him that you would be upset because you couldn't respond. He asked about a situation with Anglicans because he's going to be meeting with an Anglican minister, not because he was looking for ways to offend any Anglican members of the phorum. He might have just as easily asked about how it would be appropriate to address a priest or minister of another Christian denomination, and it would be meant just as innocently.

As Catholics, we realize that although we want to respect people of other faith, we want to be careful to always express, first and foremost, our faith in the sacraments, and in the Catholic Church. It would be dishonest and sometimes scandalous if we were not to do so. Sometimes the best way to do that is to ask those who would know what the general precedent is in such situations. That does not, however, have anything to do with a lack of respect.
[/quote]

You're right, I shouldn't have taken it personally. I'm overreacting tonight.

It's just that, since I have met far more Anglican and Anglo-Catholic clergy over the years that most members of the phorum, I figured I might know more about the precendents for people of other faiths in addressing Anglican clergy than some Catholics would. (Although, maybe I don't.) You're right--a Catholic would be much better for addressing why or whether he should feel uncomfortable addressing the member of the Anglican clergy as "Father." I wasn't thinking about the theology behind why USAirways might feel uncomfortable addressing Anglican clergy as "Father," I was simply suggesting an easy solution, because in my experience of Anglicans, the issue of "address" is generally not a big deal, so USAirways should feel free to do what is most comfortable for him.

Edited March 28, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola