Closing Liturgy Of The Los Angeles Religious Education Congress 2010

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='28 March 2010 - 05:48 AM' timestamp='1269773332' post='2081898']
Just perusing some of the workshop presentations it appears to me that not all of it is bad. Fr. Richard Benson usually presents the Church's teaching on sexuality in an orthodox and positive manner and I gather he did so here too. Then again, John Allen of the NCR is introduced this way:

"THE FUTURE CHURCH: EXPLORING CATHOLICISM
IN THE 21ST CENTURY
Based on trends presently shaping the Catholic future,
this workshop will explore some provocative questions:
Will the Church of the future be more interested
in witchcraft than women priests? If science identifies a
"God gene," will the Church support genetic engineering
to make people more religious? What are the odds of
an American pope in a multi polar world? Offering some
feet-on-the-ground reporting to support answers, this
session will provide glimpses of a future that in many
ways is already here!
John L. Allen Jr." (!)[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/ohno.gif[/img]
I wonder how many loyal Catholics are left in LA. If the new archbishop is a good Catholic it looks as if he will be very lonely.

S.
[/quote]

Sometimes, in trying to be "relevant" you just come across looking silly. (I'll leave the remarks about the Catholicism of the seminar to others.) But, even to a non-Catholic, the seminar sounds "silly" and isn't good PR for the Catholic church. Enough non-Catholics (but not me) think that Catholics already do strange things like sacrifice babies and practice cannibalism. This seminar could be used by those non-Catholics as "proof" that the Catholic church is getting into Satanism. "Will the church of the future be more concerned about 'witchcraft' than women priests?" Give me a break.

I did read a short news item recently that scientists have been trying to find a "God gene," but so far, have failed to do so. Personally, I expect they will continue to fail, and wish they would use their research and medical expertise to work on trying to better understand the causes of strokes, Alzeimer's, etc--there is SO much that science doesn't know yet, that would help millions of people. I'll let God take care of his part in all this, and not try to explain "faith" by our genetic make-up.

BTW--as I posted earlier, on a whim I looked up the Web site of the Catholic church in LA where I was married. From what I could see, it was thriving, and I didn't see anything "new age" at all. I read that the LA Archdiocese is separated into five sections, each headed by a different bishop. I suspect that the local bishops have a lot of power over the churches in their section--perhaps diluting some of Mahoney's power and influence.

Edited March 28, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[geetarplayer]

The music is not authentic to any culture I know of, except American pop-culture. The "Latino" songs are really just light rock hits with Spanish lyrics.

I know drums have been used in certain religions (Shinto, Yoruba, Santeria, etc). The drum set, however, does not fall into the category of "divine percussion". Its original purpose was for military, orchestra, jazz, and now it has been adapted for rock 'n' roll. You could say that the drum set is a strictly secular, if not commercial, instrument. Can a drum set be used for worship? Maybe, and I might expect an expert percussionist to make it sound beautiful. But this one-and-TWO-and-three-and-FOUR business is not a beat typically reserved for religious ceremonies.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='28 March 2010 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1269791499' post='2081968']
You just made my day, I am going to have to pass your story along.

We have a band of faithful Catholic families here and things are changing. With our sons baptism we had the first Latin baptism at the parish in 45 years. The tabernacle is on its way back soon (to its rightful place), Latin has been re-introduced in the NO, Sacred Art is popping up in more places, more parishioners are kneeling, and it is driving our liberals bANaNAs. Our bishop recently ordered kneelers in all the parishes.
[/quote]
Keep up the good work! It is only when good Catholics do nothing about the abuses in their parishes, that abuse prevails. I am sure that many families will be grateful of your efforts to bring back authentic Catholic worship in your parish.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1269734348' post='2081643']
If only Catholics in North and South America, under European imperialism had the luck that the Christians of your own heritage had in worshiping God in Divine Liturgy.
[/quote]

If only my Cherokee Indian ancestors had the good luck to keep their own land from the crusading European and South American colonialists. I am sorry, Ephrem, and I mean this charitably, but your comments in this thread seem to indicate a greater interest in promotion of a particular cultural outlook than in the preservation of the liturgy. The culture of interest to us all should be CATHOLIC. Full stop. There is plenty of room in individual devotion and in the community of a parish to promote culture. The liturgy is not a forum for showcasing ethnic history.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='27 March 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1269740238' post='2081711']
Simply no. We have a GIRM which lays out how holy Mass is to be said. It doesn't include prancing women with incense, and it never will no matter what culture we are discussing.
[/quote]

Full of win. +1.

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1269741347' post='2081730']
I do believe that I have more optimism in Los Angeles knowing that many more young Catholics of my generation are not quite interested in much of the pizzazz that gets promoted by the Archdiocesan Liturgies. [/quote]

That is a good thing.

[quote]I think that also reflects in my attitude in that I feel little to no reason to despair or get angry, because I know in the long run, these things will not last. I know enough young Catholics to know that this is a trend that is more of a tangent that is probably going to wither and die, and as more young people, who actually crave new age stuff, they go looking for it without all the Catholic Church. And as many other young Catholics crave Catholic stuff, they find ways to challenge the status quo. I think the characterization of the Los Angeles church in this thread is highly inaccurate.[/quote]

While I understand your premise, I have to believe that the faithful have an interest in preserving the Divinely instituted liturgy, and not having to hold their breath while it works itself out. Just knowing the consecration of the Eucharist was valid doesn't make the Mass that has been butchered OK. The characterization of the LA church is not a way to cast aspersions at LA residents, which is an error in logic I think you are making. It is right and proper for the faithful to call for the reform of practices which, as you said yourself in the quote prior to this one, are sponsored by the Archdiocese. That doesn't make LA Catholics bad. It makes the shepherds of the diocese gravely negligent in their pastoral duties. That is a big distinction to be drawn.

[quote]I am also bothered that some people feel that they need to be on an idealistic crusade to get enough angry people to rally behind their cause to humiliate the RE Congress. Therefore, I am not even welcome to discuss inculturation, or how we can allow the Spirit of God to penetrate our Liturgical practices.[/quote]

We should not have to allow the Spirit of God to penetrate our Liturgical practices. We should prostrate ourselves in the presence of the Spirit of God already in the liturgy and then leave the liturgy the heck alone! God doesn't need our input. As I said before, inculturation is a subject better left outside the liturgy.


[quote]Finally, nobody in this phorum seems to be discussing the fact that the fastest growing Catholic population in this country is Hispanic, and Church leadership is doing a lot to integrate them into full active participation, but they run against resistence in many areas, like allowing Liturgies in Spanish, or devotions, or anything of the like. Los Angeles, is one of the few places I see doing a decent job of this. And this, which has been much of the reasoning behind my posts, may not be entirely appropriate here. For that I am sorry.
[/quote]

You should travel in the south if you are finding that there are lacks of Spanish speaking liturgies. There is at least one Spanish Mass in nearly every parish I can think of. The Hispanic population in the south is tremendous (and I am talking Alabama and Georgia here, not Texas) and there is an obvious outreach to that community. As a matter of fact, the Hispanic population here has a better chance of being culturally integrated than I do, and I am half Irish, which is another historically Catholic culture. I couldn't find an Irish parish here with both hands and a map. You will have a much better chance of finding an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe here than one of Our Lady of Fatima.

My point isn't to say that one culture receives favoritism. My point is that culture in the liturgy is a misnomer. As I said, we are all Catholics, no matter our racial or ethnic identities. Catholic is the culture we should strive to promote, by the unity of a single, universal liturgy (and that doesn't mean solely the EF, so don't mistake my meaning there). Our devotional practices and communities should reflect our culture. The liturgy of the Mass, the Paschal Sacrifice, does not need people to help it. It needs us to get the heck out of the way and just worship.

Off my soapbox now. I'll be here all week. Please tip your waitress.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1269741347' post='2081730']
Finally, nobody in this phorum seems to be discussing the fact that the fastest growing Catholic population in this country is Hispanic, and Church leadership is doing a lot to integrate them into full active participation, but they run against resistence in many areas, like allowing Liturgies in Spanish, or devotions, or anything of the like.
[/quote]

We wouldn't have to worry about whether to celebrate Mass in English or in Spanish if the Mass of the Roman Rite were always celebrated in Latin.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='28 March 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1269791499' post='2081968']
You just made my day, I am going to have to pass your story along. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

We have a band of faithful Catholic families here and things are changing. With our sons baptism we had the first Latin baptism at the parish in 45 years. The tabernacle is on its way back soon (to its rightful place), Latin has been re-introduced in the NO, Sacred Art is popping up in more places, more parishioners are kneeling, and it is driving our liberals bANaNAs. Our bishop recently ordered kneelers in all the parishes.
[/quote]

There aren't kneelers in some Catholic churches? Huh? You can tell how long it's been since I've been in a Catholic church. Even we "godless" Anglicans still kneel. (Not that I can speak for every congregation). Things ARE bad! (And that's a non-Catholic saying that!)

Granted, my ex-husband and I designed our wedding service to include no kneeling. This was out of respect for my atheist father, who was making a HUGE concession for my sake by attending his first Catholic service in 20 or 30 years. However, the church definitely HAD kneelers, and my Catholic relatives DID kneel--as did my ex-husband and I.

I support Latin masses. As I've written before, even the most reform Jewish congregations still hold their services in Hebrew. Their prayer book has the Hebrew on one side and the English on the other, so those that don't speak Hebrew can still follow along. They've been holding their services in Hebrew for 5,000+ years, and even with the many changes made by reform congregations, the language of the service was not one of the changes.

One side note (which I have also posted before) is that I see a trend back toward Latin within the secular community. My niece took four years of Latin in public high school (with her parents' blessing, even though they are atheists). She enjoyed Latin so much that she has continued to take Latin in college, whenever she can fit it into her academic schedule. And, she is far from the only non-religious person studying Latin. If Latin is coming back in the secular community, ideally it is also coming back among Catholic students, as well.

Edited March 28, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='28 March 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1269794915' post='2081992']
There aren't kneelers in some Catholic churches? Huh? You can tell how long it's been since I've been in a Catholic church. Even we "godless" Anglicans still kneel. (Not that I can speak for every congregation). Things ARE bad! (And that's a non-Catholic saying that!)
[/quote]
The local Anglo-Catholic parish has a San Damiano cross.

Sometimes at my parish, I'm not sure if I'm walking in to a church or a lovely new religious-themed gymnasium.

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='27 March 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1269725364' post='2081545']My mistake, and I just missed the window (by one minute).[/quote]
i fixed it anyway

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 March 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1269732345' post='2081608']
Hmmm.

According to the RE Congress Youtube page Mahony was present at the gathering:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucNCy-dH8Rc[/media]

P.S. - In the "opening rite" for the RE Congress I see nothing that is particularly indicative of Hispanic culture; instead, I simply see a lot of new age dancing non-sense. Sadly, to see Cardinal Mahony you have to wait till the end of this video.
[/quote]
+1 but i don't have it.

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='28 March 2010 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1269793810' post='2081981']
If only my Cherokee Indian ancestors had the good luck to keep their own land from the crusading European and South American colonialists. I am sorry, Ephrem, and I mean this charitably, but your comments in this thread seem to indicate a greater interest in promotion of a particular cultural outlook than in the preservation of the liturgy. The culture of interest to us all should be CATHOLIC. Full stop. There is plenty of room in individual devotion and in the community of a parish to promote culture. The liturgy is not a forum for showcasing ethnic history.



Full of win. +1.



That is a good thing.



While I understand your premise, I have to believe that the faithful have an interest in preserving the Divinely instituted liturgy, and not having to hold their breath while it works itself out. Just knowing the consecration of the Eucharist was valid doesn't make the Mass that has been butchered OK. The characterization of the LA church is not a way to cast aspersions at LA residents, which is an error in logic I think you are making. It is right and proper for the faithful to call for the reform of practices which, as you said yourself in the quote prior to this one, are sponsored by the Archdiocese. That doesn't make LA Catholics bad. It makes the shepherds of the diocese gravely negligent in their pastoral duties. That is a big distinction to be drawn.



We should not have to allow the Spirit of God to penetrate our Liturgical practices. We should prostrate ourselves in the presence of the Spirit of God already in the liturgy and then leave the liturgy the heck alone! God doesn't need our input. As I said before, inculturation is a subject better left outside the liturgy.




You should travel in the south if you are finding that there are lacks of Spanish speaking liturgies. There is at least one Spanish Mass in nearly every parish I can think of. The Hispanic population in the south is tremendous (and I am talking Alabama and Georgia here, not Texas) and there is an obvious outreach to that community. As a matter of fact, the Hispanic population here has a better chance of being culturally integrated than I do, and I am half Irish, which is another historically Catholic culture. I couldn't find an Irish parish here with both hands and a map. You will have a much better chance of finding an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe here than one of Our Lady of Fatima.

My point isn't to say that one culture receives favoritism. My point is that culture in the liturgy is a misnomer. As I said, we are all Catholics, no matter our racial or ethnic identities. Catholic is the culture we should strive to promote, by the unity of a single, universal liturgy (and that doesn't mean solely the EF, so don't mistake my meaning there). Our devotional practices and communities should reflect our culture. The liturgy of the Mass, the Paschal Sacrifice, does not need people to help it. It needs us to get the heck out of the way and just worship.

Off my soapbox now. I'll be here all week. Please tip your waitress.
[/quote]
+1 again but don't have it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Maximilianus' date='27 March 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1269744395' post='2081789']
Look up Dominican priest Bartolomé de las Casas.
Catholic Ency. article [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03397a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03397a.htm[/url]
[/quote]
Why did you mention this exactly? Just curious cuz I'm into de las Casas and all that.

[xJessicaIsHisx]

I couldn't watch this anymore after the beginning

[God Conquers]

Yeah, there is definitely too much "business" going on at that mass.

AT the Eucharistic Congress they had big masses like this every day. They weren't SO bad, and there was even an Eastern Rite mass which was awesome.

However, whenever the weird stuff gets thrown in it just seems... unnecessary. For the offertory, they would offer up several "gifts" every day from each province (because it took place in Canada), thanking God for them. It made the mass longer, and was distracting because it was far too easy to make fun of. My friends and I ended up just being irreverent (our fault) but it was hard to help it!

On thing though... what do you all think about natural cultural components in a mass of mixed cultures? For instance, Native American incensing with sweetgrass and eagle feather, or an African offertory... as long as they are done by those specific cultures? I think those things are awesome and tend to really add to my worship experience.

Also... what about the innovations necessary for bug masses at non-traditional venues, like fields or stadiums?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='28 March 2010 - 11:29 AM' timestamp='1269786597' post='2081947']
Satan is crafty like that isn't he? He knows he will get "shut down" if he does overtly stupid things like invalidate the Mass altogether. On that much I have to believe the Holy See would step in. He pushes it as far as possible.
[/quote]

Well, that is the general mentality, flawed as it may be.

[geetarplayer]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='28 March 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1269805415' post='2082083']
On thing though... what do you all think about natural cultural components in a mass of mixed cultures? For instance, Native American incensing with sweetgrass and eagle feather, or an African offertory... as long as they are done by those specific cultures? I think those things are awesome and tend to really add to my worship experience.
[/quote]
I think it depends on the situation. In a parish with an active ministry for Native American parishioners, on the feast of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha, I can see an offering of sweet grass adding a nice touch to the liturgy. Add to it some [url="http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/a/mangreat.htm"]native-influenced hymns[/url], and that's an authentic expression of a cultural identity that doesn't distract from the sacred mysteries.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='28 March 2010 - 05:48 AM' timestamp='1269773332' post='2081898']
Just perusing some of the workshop presentations it appears to me that not all of it is bad. Fr. Richard Benson usually presents the Church's teaching on sexuality in an orthodox and positive manner and I gather he did so here too. Then again, John Allen of the NCR is introduced this way:

"THE FUTURE CHURCH: EXPLORING CATHOLICISM
IN THE 21ST CENTURY
Based on trends presently shaping the Catholic future,
this workshop will explore some provocative questions:
Will the Church of the future be more interested
in witchcraft than women priests? If science identifies a
“God gene,” will the Church support genetic engineering
to make people more religious? What are the odds of
an American pope in a multi polar world? Offering some
feet-on-the-ground reporting to support answers, this
session will provide glimpses of a future that in many
ways is already here!
John L. Allen Jr." (!)
I wonder how many loyal Catholics are left in LA. If the new archbishop is a good Catholic it looks as if he will be very lonely.

S.
[/quote]

I know someone who was at this workshop, the blurb here is meant to be sensationalistic, because John Allen is one of the few progressive commentators in the Church who writes in the NCR asserting that their ideologies are not catching any interest among the new generation of Catholics.
Believe me, there are a lot more conservative, traditional, or orthodox Catholics in LA than you might imagine.
This is much too narrow a case to put agains the largest and most ethnically diverse archdiocese on the planet.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='28 March 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1269793810' post='2081981']
We should not have to allow the Spirit of God to penetrate our Liturgical practices. We should prostrate ourselves in the presence of the Spirit of God already in the liturgy and then leave the liturgy the heck alone! God doesn't need our input. As I said before, inculturation is a subject better left outside the liturgy.
[/quote]

The general mood I get in this thread is that all inculturation is EVIL!!! and HERETICAL!!! and BLASPHEMOUS!!!
I do not think enough people are thinking of creative and critical ways to inculturate the liturgy faithfully. Because others do it haphazardly or our of good willed error, that it should never never never be permitted. Because one person, or one parish, or one archdiocese makes a mistake, than it should never never never never be permitted. Because allowing someone the room to do something like this is too risky, and needs to stop immediately. It is an attitude of ecclesiology like this that honestly scares me. And I think most of us are like this in reaction to much of the permissiveness that has pervaded in our liturgical errors since the Second Vatican Council.

So I am in agreement with our Holy Father in this matter in [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html"]Sacramentum Caritatis[/url] when he says:
[quote] 54. On the basis of these fundamental statements of the Second Vatican Council, the Synod Fathers frequently stressed the importance of the [b]active participation of the faithful in the eucharistic sacrifice[/b]. In order to foster this participation, provision may be made for a[b] number of adaptations appropriate to different contexts and cultures[/b]. (163) [b]The fact that certain abuses have occurred does not detract from this clear principle, which must be upheld in accordance with the real needs of the Church as she lives and celebrates the one mystery of Christ in a variety of cultural situations[/b]. In the mystery of the Incarnation, the Lord Jesus, born of woman and fully human (cf. Gal 4:4), entered directly into a relationship not only with the expectations present within the Old Testament, but also with those of all peoples. [b]He thus showed that God wishes to encounter us in our own concrete situation[/b]. A more effective participation of the faithful in the holy mysteries will thus benefit from the continued inculturation of the eucharistic celebration, with due regard for the possibilities for adaptation provided in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, (164) interpreted in the light of the criteria laid down by the Fourth Instruction of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments Varietates Legitimae of 25 January 1994 (165) and the directives expressed by Pope John Paul II in the Post-Synodal Exhortations Ecclesia in Africa, Ecclesia in America, Ecclesia in Asia, Ecclesia in Oceania and Ecclesia in Europa (166). To this end, I encourage Episcopal Conferences to strive to maintain a proper balance between the criteria and directives already issued and new adaptations (167), always in accord with the Apostolic See. [/quote]

And we do not need convincing that Benedict wants our Church to be faithful in Liturgy, and nobody here needs an elaboration on that...
When we start discussing errors of washed up hippy interpretations of happy clappy kumbaya liturgy, without trying to understand clearly what active participation and inculturation should mean for our Church today. Certainly there are things that do not fall into this category.

I also made a mistake when I wanted to say we have to let the Spirit of God penetrate our cultures, and our cultures penetrate our Liturgies. It happened at Tepeyac, because the Mother of God did what the ministers of the Church were too afraid to do, when she appeared to Juan Diego dressed as an indigenous Aztec Princess, with dark skin, and spoke Nahuatl, the indigenous language. And then 6 million Mexicans entered the Catholic Church thereafter.

Los Angeles is in a unique situation, and we are blessed with Catholics from all corners of the world. The Eucharistic Liturgy is celebrated in over 50 languages, and we have a unique pastoral situation to recognize and cherish all the treasures that we have before us, and conformity just does not help. And yes, conformity to extravagant multimedia productions in liturgy would not be either.

Bartalameo de las Casas challenged a lot of the popular ideas at the time, that the indigenous peoples of the Americas could justifiably be exploited and manipulated for the sake of the desires of the colonizers.
It is of my own lonely opinion that the Church in Americas has been in a messy situation, because the cultural identity of the indigenous peoples has not, until recently been given real credibility in the Church and society. I think I am also on a wave from the anniversary of the martyrdom of Oscar Romero, who was murdered celebrating the same Sacred Mysteries at the Alter of the Blessed Sacrament that are the point of controversy here. While the Eucharist was forbidden to indigenous peoples for centuries precisely because they were afraid that they would corrupt it. Yet, if we never learn to have faith in each other, and if we must always be suspicious, our Church will be on the brink of division.