Closing Liturgy Of The Los Angeles Religious Education Congress 2010

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1269741347' post='2081730']
cmotherofpirl: The Church recognizes the importance of dancing in Africa, for instance. Dancing is a highly spiritual activity, just as drum rhythms are considered divine. It is quite the opposite in America. That is why I speak of things not being easy, when you have to consider the other problem of Africans being imported here as slaves, and stripped of their own cultural heritage.[/quote]
Please watch this, you won't be sorry.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s[/media]

[quote]Finally, nobody in this phorum seems to be discussing the fact that the fastest growing Catholic population in this country is Hispanic, and Church leadership is doing a lot to integrate them into full active participation, but they run against resistence in many areas, like allowing Liturgies in Spanish, or devotions, or anything of the like.
[/quote]
I guess I can't speak for everyone, but that's not true in my area. We have two churches in our parish, an anglophone one and a Spanish-speaking one. The Spanish-speaking one is smaller, yes, but that's because the population is smaller. On the larger feast days (i.e. Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe) they will use the main church - the bigger one - and the anglophones will use the smaller one.

Edited March 28, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1269741347' post='2081730']
I do believe that I have more optimism in Los Angeles knowing that many more young Catholics of my generation are not quite interested in much of the pizzazz that gets promoted by the Archdiocesan Liturgies. I think that also reflects in my attitude in that I feel little to no reason to despair or get angry, because I know in the long run, these things will not last. I know enough young Catholics to know that this is a trend that is more of a tangent that is probably going to wither and die, and as more young people, who actually crave new age stuff, they go looking for it without all the Catholic Church. And as many other young Catholics crave Catholic stuff, they find ways to challenge the status quo. I think the characterization of the Los Angeles church in this thread is highly inaccurate.

I am also bothered that some people feel that they need to be on an idealistic crusade to get enough angry people to rally behind their cause to humiliate the RE Congress. Therefore, I am not even welcome to discuss inculturation, or how we can allow the Spirit of God to penetrate our Liturgical practices.

Slappo: Laity, and yes, priests, and yes, bishops, found ways to officially keep the indiginous people from Church life. Yes civil authorities caused violence, but it was common practice for their priests to give them blessings. And I have done enough research to know that it was a few brave souls, priests and friars, and other Bishops who did take a stand against oppression, but their compassion was rooted out by the noise of aggression.
cmotherofpirl: The Church recognizes the importance of dancing in Africa, for instance. Dancing is a highly spiritual activity, just as drum rhythms are considered divine. It is quite the opposite in America. That is why I speak of things not being easy, when you have to consider the other problem of Africans being imported here as slaves, and stripped of their own cultural heritage.
Finally, nobody in this phorum seems to be discussing the fact that the fastest growing Catholic population in this country is Hispanic, and Church leadership is doing a lot to integrate them into full active participation, but they run against resistence in many areas, like allowing Liturgies in Spanish, or devotions, or anything of the like. Los Angeles, is one of the few places I see doing a decent job of this. And this, which has been much of the reasoning behind my posts, may not be entirely appropriate here. For that I am sorry.
[/quote]
I have no problem with Africans dancing at an African Mass in Africa with the approval of their african bishops. Women prancing around the altar is certainly not part of Spanish tradition however, and certainly not the US. I have no problem with Spanish liturgies, Vietnamese liturgies, or any other liturgies approved by the church, I just can't stomach people inventing liturgy to please themselves and trying to call it catholic. If you read the classes offered many of them are new age garbage led by people notoriously dissident from church teachings.

[Apotheoun]

Here is the Mass schedule at the Latin parish closest to where I live:


[b]Weekdays[/b]

Mass:
8:30am - Monday, Wednesday, Friday (English)
6:30pm - Tuesday-Friday (Español)

Communion Service only:
8:30am - Tuesday, Thursday (English)


[b]Saturday[/b]

8:30am - Communion Service (English)

4:30pm - Vigil Mass (English)
6:30pm - Vigil Mass (Español)


[b]Sunday[/b]

Mass:
7:15am, 10:30am, 12:00 noon, 5:00pm (English)
8:30am & 7:00pm (Español)

[Laudate_Dominum]

Hear the children crying
Hear the children crying
Sayin' give thanks and praise to the Lord and I will feel all right
Sayin' let's get together and feel all right

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='27 March 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1269741702' post='2081735']
Please watch this, you won't be sorry.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s[/media]


[/quote]
I love listening to Cardinal Arinze.

I find him really intimidating though. I'll bet that if I were ever to talk to him, I'd be too scared to say much of anything in case I made a mistake.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 March 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1269740564' post='2081715']
Ooh, that's an angle I hadn't heard before. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] Can you point me in the direction of some relevant documents?
[/quote]

Look up Dominican priest Bartolomé de las Casas.
Catholic Ency. article [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03397a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03397a.htm[/url]

Edited March 28, 2010 by Maximilianus

[Skinzo]

Just perusing some of the workshop presentations it appears to me that not all of it is bad. Fr. Richard Benson usually presents the Church's teaching on sexuality in an orthodox and positive manner and I gather he did so here too. Then again, John Allen of the NCR is introduced this way:

"THE FUTURE CHURCH: EXPLORING CATHOLICISM
IN THE 21ST CENTURY
Based on trends presently shaping the Catholic future,
this workshop will explore some provocative questions:
Will the Church of the future be more interested
in witchcraft than women priests? If science identifies a
“God gene,” will the Church support genetic engineering
to make people more religious? What are the odds of
an American pope in a multi polar world? Offering some
feet-on-the-ground reporting to support answers, this
session will provide glimpses of a future that in many
ways is already here!
John L. Allen Jr." (!)
I wonder how many loyal Catholics are left in LA. If the new archbishop is a good Catholic it looks as if he will be very lonely.

S.

[Theologian in Training]

Well, at least the words of Consecration were not changed...whew! So, it's all good

[Saint Therese]

Those videos make me want to vomit.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='28 March 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1269782180' post='2081914']
Well, at least the words of Consecration were not changed...whew! So, it's all good
[/quote]

Satan is crafty like that isn't he? He knows he will get "shut down" if he does overtly stupid things like invalidate the Mass altogether. On that much I have to believe the Holy See would step in. He pushes it as far as possible.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='28 March 2010 - 07:48 AM' timestamp='1269773332' post='2081898']
Just perusing some of the workshop presentations it appears to me that not all of it is bad. Fr. Richard Benson usually presents the Church's teaching on sexuality in an orthodox and positive manner and I gather he did so here too. Then again, John Allen of the NCR is introduced this way:

"THE FUTURE CHURCH: EXPLORING CATHOLICISM
IN THE 21ST CENTURY
Based on trends presently shaping the Catholic future,
this workshop will explore some provocative questions:
Will the Church of the future be more interested
in witchcraft than women priests? If science identifies a
“God gene,” will the Church support genetic engineering
to make people more religious? What are the odds of
an American pope in a multi polar world? Offering some
feet-on-the-ground reporting to support answers, this
session will provide glimpses of a future that in many
ways is already here!
John L. Allen Jr." (!)
I wonder how many loyal Catholics are left in LA. If the new archbishop is a good Catholic it looks as if he will be very lonely.

S.
[/quote]
THey are never all bad, that would be too obvious.

[dominicansoul]

this just goes to show that parents need to catechize their children first, then seek support from the Church...what do I mean? I grew up catechized by my mom, who taught me at a very early age what Catholicism and my Faith was all about. She nurtured it by taking me to Mass every Sunday and to Adoration. When my parish began doing crazy things like what is happening in these videos, I was smart enough to know..."THIS IS NOT MY FAITH, THIS IS NOT MY CHURCH." And I became very vocal against it. My family was very vocal against it. We fought the liturgical abuses tooth and nail. My pastors were always put aside by our constant protests. We became known as the family that wouldn't "follow along." When the pastors decided to move the Mass into a multi-purpose building, and take out all the kneelers. WE were the family who weren't afraid to kneel during Consecration or after the Lamb of God and Holy Communion, while everybody else stood. Slowly, more and more parishioners followed our lead. WE began to gain support, and before long, the liturgical abuses came to an end, and things were put back in order...

I attribute this to my mom's dedication in teaching me right from wrong. She was very passionate about our Faith, and because of this, we children were strong enough not to just follow along like blind sheep at what we knew was not supposed to be happening in the Mass. I don't think I would have been strong enough to fight the abuses, if I had been raised by the catechetical programs this parish offered. Instead, I'm sure I would have been more eager to just go along with the abuses!


If California has become so outrageous, it's because families aren't catechizing their children...and they just follow along with whatever croutons their shepherds give them...

...we Catholics have a right to worship as we are supposed to, no one has the privilege of taking away from us authentic Catholic worship...we have every right to voice our protests even to the Bishops and let them know how wrong they are to allow such abuses...

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1269741347' post='2081730']
Finally, nobody in this phorum seems to be discussing the fact that the fastest growing Catholic population in this country is Hispanic, and Church leadership is doing a lot to integrate them into full active participation, but they run against resistence in many areas, like allowing Liturgies in Spanish, or devotions, or anything of the like. Los Angeles, is one of the few places I see doing a decent job of this. And this, which has been much of the reasoning behind my posts, may not be entirely appropriate here. For that I am sorry.
[/quote]

After reading your posts, I went back and looked at the Web site of the Catholic church in LA where I was married. The church had a growing Hispanic population back then, and it seems to be growing even more today. It seemed as if the church now offers almost as many Masses in Spanish as in English, and the church bulletin is bilingual. On my brief visit to the Web site, I didn't see anything that looked "new age." I did wonder for a minute when I saw a service of "women's" stations of the cross being offered (along with about 4 or 5 additional services of the stations of the cross--in English, Spanish, inside, outside, etc.). But, then I saw that the "women's" service is to be held in "the grotto," which is a lovely, outside area (only in LA would that be possible!) dedicated to the Virgin Mary. Since the Virgin Mary was present at Christ's crucifixion, it makes sense to me that women might be especially moved by a stations of the cross that, not only reflects on Christ's sufferings, but also on Mary's sufferings as a mother. So, without any more information that that, I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt, that it was a legitimate service, with perhaps additional reflections on the Virgin Mary.

One thing I noticed is that, because LA is so large--both in population and geography--that it has been divided into five pastoral sections, each headed by a different bishop. I would expect that the local bishop for each section has a great deal of power over his section, and depending on the bishop, this may be a counterbalance to Mahoney, at least in some sections.

As I've posted before, my ex-husband and I often preferred to go to the Spanish language Masses instead of the English language ones. When I lived in LA, I was virtually fluent in Spanish (alas I've lost most of it due to lack of use). In the Spanish language Masses, the congregation seemed to be much more involved in the Mass, while many (but certainly not all) of the congregation at the English language masses seemed to be "going through the motions" to fulfill their Sunday Mass obligation. Also, the music was better in the Spanish language masses. At the time I was married, the church was going through the unfortunate era of trying to be "relevant" by replacing traditional liturgical music with guitar players who didn't play very well, and very lame modern hymns. (I'm a big fan of traditional liturgical music.) In contrast, in Mexico, the guitar is an integral part of the musical culture, so the guitar players (and other instrumentalists) at the Spanish language Masses were both expert and genuinely enjoying the music of their culture.

Ephrem--You will continue to be in my thoughts as you try to adapt to the culture of the Midwest, and I hope that that you find a church and friends with whom you can be yourself. And, take a weekend trip to Chicago once in awhile to a Puerto Rican neighborhood, as a "break," and to enjoy a Spanish language Mass. In the meantime, try as best you can to laugh at the "West Coast" comments--all over the U.S., everyone thinks they live in "God's country," and that nowhere else can be better--and the people on the West Coast are just as bad or worse about this than the people in the Midwest. There ARE benefits of the Midwest over LA. For example, I have found that since I have lived here I have become less materialistic, and less concerned with how I (and other people) look. If you encounter discrimination, my heart breaks for you, but most of the time it is due to ignorance.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='28 March 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1269790488' post='2081959']
this just goes to show that parents need to catechize their children first, then seek support from the Church...what do I mean? I grew up catechized by my mom, who taught me at a very early age what Catholicism and my Faith was all about. She nurtured it by taking me to Mass every Sunday and to Adoration. When my parish began doing crazy things like what is happening in these videos, I was smart enough to know..."THIS IS NOT MY FAITH, THIS IS NOT MY CHURCH." And I became very vocal against it. My family was very vocal against it. We fought the liturgical abuses tooth and nail. My pastors were always put aside by our constant protests. We became known as the family that wouldn't "follow along." When the pastors decided to move the Mass into a multi-purpose building, and take out all the kneelers. WE were the family who weren't afraid to kneel during Consecration or after the Lamb of God and Holy Communion, while everybody else stood. Slowly, more and more parishioners followed our lead. WE began to gain support, and before long, the liturgical abuses came to an end, and things were put back in order...

I attribute this to my mom's dedication in teaching me right from wrong. She was very passionate about our Faith, and because of this, we children were strong enough not to just follow along like blind sheep at what we knew was not supposed to be happening in the Mass. I don't think I would have been strong enough to fight the abuses, if I had been raised by the catechetical programs this parish offered. Instead, I'm sure I would have been more eager to just go along with the abuses!


If California has become so outrageous, it's because families aren't catechizing their children...and they just follow along with whatever croutons their shepherds give them...

...we Catholics have a right to worship as we are supposed to, no one has the privilege of taking away from us authentic Catholic worship...we have every right to voice our protests even to the Bishops and let them know how wrong they are to allow such abuses...
[/quote]


You just made my day, I am going to have to pass your story along.

We have a band of faithful Catholic families here and things are changing. With our sons baptism we had the first Latin baptism at the parish in 45 years. The tabernacle is on its way back soon (to its rightful place), Latin has been re-introduced in the NO, Sacred Art is popping up in more places, more parishioners are kneeling, and it is driving our liberals bANaNAs. Our bishop recently ordered kneelers in all the parishes.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1269741347' post='2081730']
I do believe that I have more optimism in Los Angeles knowing that many more young Catholics of my generation are not quite interested in much of the pizzazz that gets promoted by the Archdiocesan Liturgies. I think that also reflects in my attitude in that I feel little to no reason to despair or get angry, because I know in the long run, these things will not last. I know enough young Catholics to know that this is a trend that is more of a tangent that is probably going to wither and die, and as more young people, who actually crave new age stuff, they go looking for it without all the Catholic Church. And as many other young Catholics crave Catholic stuff, they find ways to challenge the status quo. I think the characterization of the Los Angeles church in this thread is highly inaccurate.

I am also bothered that some people feel that they need to be on an idealistic crusade to get enough angry people to rally behind their cause to humiliate the RE Congress. Therefore, I am not even welcome to discuss inculturation, or how we can allow the Spirit of God to penetrate our Liturgical practices.

Slappo: Laity, and yes, priests, and yes, bishops, found ways to officially keep the indiginous people from Church life. Yes civil authorities caused violence, but it was common practice for their priests to give them blessings. And I have done enough research to know that it was a few brave souls, priests and friars, and other Bishops who did take a stand against oppression, but their compassion was rooted out by the noise of aggression.
cmotherofpirl: The Church recognizes the importance of dancing in Africa, for instance. Dancing is a highly spiritual activity, just as drum rhythms are considered divine. It is quite the opposite in America. That is why I speak of things not being easy, when you have to consider the other problem of Africans being imported here as slaves, and stripped of their own cultural heritage.
Finally, nobody in this phorum seems to be discussing the fact that the fastest growing Catholic population in this country is Hispanic, and Church leadership is doing a lot to integrate them into full active participation, but they run against resistence in many areas, like allowing Liturgies in Spanish, or devotions, or anything of the like. Los Angeles, is one of the few places I see doing a decent job of this. And this, which has been much of the reasoning behind my posts, may not be entirely appropriate here. For that I am sorry.
[/quote]

I don't believe in inculturation of the Liturgy. There was once a time when every Catholic from every culture, background and every nation on earth, WORSHIPPED TOGETHER in a UNITIVE way. It was called the Tidenteen Mass, and it was in the mother of all tongues, Latin.

Your comments are interesting, and I would like to discuss inculturation of the Litugy, but it seems this thread focuses clearly on the abuses of the Liturgy, and not really on any seemingly prejudice or racism that surfaced in the past or surfaces in the present times...

...as for "allowing the Spirit of God" to penetrate our Liturgical practices....I highly doubt that liturgical abuse is on the Holy Spirit's agenda...