Closing Liturgy Of The Los Angeles Religious Education Congress 2010

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1269733643' post='2081625']
I do not think that absolving ourselves of repression of peoples is what Christ calls us to. . . .
[/quote]
I do not see how bringing new age nonsense into the liturgy of the Latin Church will make up for past sins of repression.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='27 March 2010 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1269733760' post='2081629']
What I was saying with my post about being white but non-Latin is that the traditional form of the Mass does descend from my Anglo-Germanic culture or ancestry.
I'm not, however, going to request kilt and pipes masses or lederhosen and alphorn masses (or, moving back farther, pine tree and ocean worship masses) because I know the mass is not about reflecting my personal heritage.
[/quote]
Yes, and you speak of a good criteria for establishing inculturation. However, keep in mind for four hundred and fifty years it was forbidden, and now that the question is being asked the results are a reaction to that same kind of power control and dominance which has stifled the work of the holy Spirit. I am not saying that the holy Spirit is behind what is happening at this liturgy in question, however. I want to point out that most of what is happening is a reaction to something which was non Catholic innovation that accompanied imperialism in implementing Liturgy.
But if you allow some room for inculturation, you do run a risk, but if you never run a risk, and hold too tightly to power control and dominance, you don't give room for the Spirit to work in culture.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 March 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1269734010' post='2081635']
I do not see how bringing new age nonsense into the liturgy of the Latin Church will make up for past sins of repression.
[/quote]
If only Catholics in North and South America, under European imperialism had the luck that the Christians of your own heritage had in worshiping God in Divine Liturgy.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Slappo' date='27 March 2010 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1269733073' post='2081612']
I am half Puerto Rican and my ancestors come from Spain: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1nfilo_de_Narv%C3%A1ez"]Panfilo De Narvaez[/url]
[/quote]
Cool, I'm Puerto Rican.
Carry on.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Maximilianus

[Slappo]

Ephrem, really what is this question that is being asked? I really don't understand what you're talking about.

Also, you seem to be blaming the Church for the sins of oppression. It was not the Church, it was the laity.

Just like when Biden and Pelosi push for health care "reform," it is not the Church pushing for health care reform, but the laity. If someone were to tell me that the Church advocated this health care reform, I'd flip out on them.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 05:59 PM' timestamp='1269734348' post='2081643']
If only Catholics in North and South America, under European imperialism had the luck that the Christians of your own heritage had in worshiping God in Divine Liturgy.
[/quote]
The Byzantine Greeks gave the Slavic nations the Byzantine / Constantinopolitan liturgy, so should the Slavs be angry about Greek imperialism? Should the Byzantine Slavs add new age dance and other innovations to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in order to get back at the "evil" Greeks?

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1269732391' post='2081609']
I live in the midwest currently, and I do know several people who are good folk like I described. If you consider me an elitest, that is your own interpretation, and likewise several other people I have met out here, who are quick to stereotype me as "superficial" "granola" "plastic" "fruits and nuts" "homo-loving" "trying to ruin this country" or "too mexican" and I guess not American enough or something. It goes without saying, I have also never encountered so many who come across as xenophobes in my life. Maybe it just goes with fear of diversity, I don't know, while, still there are many honest people would probably give someone who is different a chance. I have lived twenty two years in so cal, and lived 4 years in the midwest. I probably would never have considered my California "lifestyle" or whatever "far superior" until I saw myself in reaction or opposition to what I have encountered here. But, I don't want to simply be reactionary and despite the insults I have received simply for being Californian or whatever, I do not think that should get in the way of what brings us together.

I really think this thread does speak to some of the cultural divides in the Church in this country.
[/quote]

I moved from SoCal to Chicago 30 years ago, and I still get teased for being from the West Coast. So, I've learned ways to make a joke out of it.

Whenever, someone tells me I am from the "land of the fruits and nuts," I answer "Fruits and nuts are good for you--maybe it will help your constipation." Most of the remarks are not personal to you--you get used to it after awhile. People in the Midwest get so stereotyped by the media that we get kind of sensitive. But, also, people who live on either Coast tend to think there is no intelligent life in the middle. Even after 30 years in Chicago, my family still says "West Coast elitist" things to me. So, I remind them that Chicago is MUCH larger than San Francisco, and we even have cars and electricity, and should get indoor plumbing any day now. LOL

Heck, I was at my sister's birthday party in CA a couple of years ago, and a PhD statistician seriously asked me, "Why would you live in Chicago if you could have this?" (Meaning my sister's backyard.) Well, to start with, I have a house in a very nice, safe neighborhood that cost less than 1/3 of what my sister's house cost. In California, the education system is having big problems. In my town, our average class size is 20 and we spend roughly $5,000 more annually per student than the city of Beverly Hills.

I understand what you're going through. It is a culture shock at first. And, Chicago, at least, is much more sophisticated and inclusive than it was when I moved here 30 years ago, yet it still happens. It took a long time, but I've learned to laugh about it. And, when I want REALLY shock people, I tell them I went to Berkeley!!! (Home of hippies, drug addicts, atheists, etc.) Forget that I also got an outstanding education, at what was then a very low price. But, I also enjoy telling people on the West Coast Chicago "horror stories" (even if they are no longer true) such as the fact that the dead vote, and if you're not a Democrat, they simply throw out your ballot.

Good luck, and try not to to take it personally. I think every locale has folks who think that where they live is the center of the universe or "God's country." But, it's usually not personal.

I have two concessions to the attractions of SoCal--the weather is better there, and after 30 years I have never found any Mexican restaurant in Chicago to rival the small neighborhood "taquerias" in LA.

BTW--If it gets really bad, try to move to a very large city like Chicago. Chicago has neighborhoods where you would feel very much at home, and a person could live their whole lives here without ever learning English, because there are Spanish language TV stations, stores, newspapers, churches. The most popular radio station in Chicago is a Spanish-speaking station.

Edited March 28, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Brother Adam]

The words "religious education" and "LA" conjure up enough nightmares that I don't need to relive them by watching the youtube videos. Every Newman school theology and catechetics program in the country is doing everything in its power to turn out enough catechists to put a stop to this dreadful mocking liturgy.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1269727914' post='2081576']
There are churches around the world that have existed for centuries, and have traditions that date back centuries, and those traditions have penetrated the liturgical practices in some way or another.
Yet the flip side is, when the Catholic Church came to what is now Latin America, they forced the continent to become in essence Latin America. The Church contributed to violence against the indigenous people of the regions of Central and South America, as well as America, and found clever ways to use theology to justify their sins against the innocent. Somewhere along the lines, the church forgot to let the Spirit move in peoples and cultures, and opted for power control and dominance in exchange.
And all of a sudden, we are in this place, Los Angeles, 2010, where cultures from around the world come into contact, and we are barely asking the same question that the Churches of the East asked more than a millennium ago, we barely have been given the opportunity to do so recently. Asking the question risks some of the wrong answers, but never asking the question only contributes to the divide and the stifling of the Spirit. Asking the right questions presents an opportunity that cannot happen otherwise.
I am from Los Angeles, and trust me giving people clear answers, the kind that, I don't know good simple homogeneous folk in the middle of somewhere, like say Kansas, might be able to enjoy. We are being presented with the challenge to sanctify the identity and gifts of a multitude of people and cultures who we spent centuries oppressing and condemning. Yeah, I am sure the Coptic Christians can take great pride in their traditions, but how can Latino Catholics take pride in their traditions when those traditions cost them humiliation?

I think everyone in this thread supposes there are easy answers when there are clearly none.

Now, youtube does not work through my computer fiddler, so I have seen none of these videos, and I might find some of it too fluffy or nonsensical in the context of a divine event.

I just find the arrogance at which people snub faith devotion incredibly annoying.
[/quote]
Simply no. We have a GIRM which lays out how holy Mass is to be said. It doesn't include prancing women with incense, and it never will no matter what culture we are discussing.
The contact between the indiginous of South America and the church in fact led the Catholic Church [specifically the Spaniards]to the first discussion of human rights for ALL peoples in history. The fact that the spanish government did not heed the results of this discussion is not the fault of the church.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='27 March 2010 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1269740238' post='2081711']
The contact between the indiginous of South America and the church in fact led the Catholic Church [specifically the Spaniards]to the first discussion of human rights for ALL peoples in history. The fact that the spanish government did not heed the results of this discussion is not the fault of the church.
[/quote]
Ooh, that's an angle I hadn't heard before. Can you point me in the direction of some relevant documents?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 March 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1269740564' post='2081715']
Ooh, that's an angle I hadn't heard before. Can you point me in the direction of some relevant documents?
[/quote]
I will have to remember what book I read it in.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='27 March 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1269740879' post='2081721']
I will have to remember what book I read it in.
[/quote]
Let me know if you remember. No pressure though, because I've still got a huge stack of things to read.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 March 2010 - 07:42 PM' timestamp='1269740564' post='2081715']
Ooh, that's an angle I hadn't heard before. Can you point me in the direction of some relevant documents?
[/quote]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Popes-Slavery-Joel-S-Panzer/dp/0818907649/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269740737&sr=8-1"]The Popes and Slavery[/url]

[Ephrem Augustine]

I do believe that I have more optimism in Los Angeles knowing that many more young Catholics of my generation are not quite interested in much of the pizzazz that gets promoted by the Archdiocesan Liturgies. I think that also reflects in my attitude in that I feel little to no reason to despair or get angry, because I know in the long run, these things will not last. I know enough young Catholics to know that this is a trend that is more of a tangent that is probably going to wither and die, and as more young people, who actually crave new age stuff, they go looking for it without all the Catholic Church. And as many other young Catholics crave Catholic stuff, they find ways to challenge the status quo. I think the characterization of the Los Angeles church in this thread is highly inaccurate.

I am also bothered that some people feel that they need to be on an idealistic crusade to get enough angry people to rally behind their cause to humiliate the RE Congress. Therefore, I am not even welcome to discuss inculturation, or how we can allow the Spirit of God to penetrate our Liturgical practices.

Slappo: Laity, and yes, priests, and yes, bishops, found ways to officially keep the indiginous people from Church life. Yes civil authorities caused violence, but it was common practice for their priests to give them blessings. And I have done enough research to know that it was a few brave souls, priests and friars, and other Bishops who did take a stand against oppression, but their compassion was rooted out by the noise of aggression.
cmotherofpirl: The Church recognizes the importance of dancing in Africa, for instance. Dancing is a highly spiritual activity, just as drum rhythms are considered divine. It is quite the opposite in America. That is why I speak of things not being easy, when you have to consider the other problem of Africans being imported here as slaves, and stripped of their own cultural heritage.
Finally, nobody in this phorum seems to be discussing the fact that the fastest growing Catholic population in this country is Hispanic, and Church leadership is doing a lot to integrate them into full active participation, but they run against resistence in many areas, like allowing Liturgies in Spanish, or devotions, or anything of the like. Los Angeles, is one of the few places I see doing a decent job of this. And this, which has been much of the reasoning behind my posts, may not be entirely appropriate here. For that I am sorry.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 March 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1269740936' post='2081723']
Let me know if you remember. No pressure though, because I've still got a huge stack of things to read.
[/quote]
I think this is it, the authors lists the Jesuits names and contributions to international law and slavery: http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/0895260387/ref=pd_sim_b_1