Closing Liturgy Of The Los Angeles Religious Education Congress 2010

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='27 March 2010 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1269730155' post='2081588']
I am white, but I am not of Latin heritage, either ancestrally or culturally.
[/quote]

I have a similar reply as USAirways. I am white, but none of my ancestors are from Spain, and had nothing to with the atrocities against native peoples, both in South America and in California. (Father Junipero Serra may have founded missions in California, but he and his followers also introduced diseases to which the native population had no immunity.)

I was married in the diocese of Los Angeles, in a church that had several Spanish language Masses each week (and that was 30 years ago). Today, the parish's newsletter is in both English and Spanish. The decor of the church itself very much reflects Latin culture and taste.

I can see why you are angry, but not sure why you are taking it out on us.

Also, as Lilllibet said, you have insulted Midwesterners (of which I am now one) for no good reason that I can see. People in Kansas are neither simple nor homogeneous.

Edited March 27, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1269729522' post='2081586']
One more fact to point out: Mahony was not at the RE Congress this year.
[/quote]
Hmmm.

According to the RE Congress Youtube page Mahony was present at the gathering:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucNCy-dH8Rc[/media]

P.S. - In the "opening rite" for the RE Congress I see nothing that is particularly indicative of Hispanic culture; instead, I simply see a lot of new age dancing non-sense. Sadly, to see Cardinal Mahony you have to wait till the end of this video.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='27 March 2010 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1269729978' post='2081587']
The bolded part, in addition to making no sense grammatically,

contains a snub against midwesterners

and is indicative of an elitist attitude

that is infamously widespread among denizens of the East and West coast.
[/quote]

I live in the midwest currently, and I do know several people who are good folk like I described. If you consider me an elitest, that is your own interpretation, and likewise several other people I have met out here, who are quick to stereotype me as "superficial" "granola" "plastic" "fruits and nuts" "homo-loving" "trying to ruin this country" or "too mexican" and I guess not American enough or something. It goes without saying, I have also never encountered so many who come across as xenophobes in my life. Maybe it just goes with fear of diversity, I don't know, while, still there are many honest people would probably give someone who is different a chance. I have lived twenty two years in so cal, and lived 4 years in the midwest. I probably would never have considered my California "lifestyle" or whatever "far superior" until I saw myself in reaction or opposition to what I have encountered here. But, I don't want to simply be reactionary and despite the insults I have received simply for being Californian or whatever, I do not think that should get in the way of what brings us together.

I really think this thread does speak to some of the cultural divides in the Church in this country.

[Apotheoun]

Still frame from the RE Congress 2010 showing Cardinal Mahony in attendance:

[img]http://sites.google.com/site/thetaboriclight/metamorphosis/RECongress2010-01.jpg[/img]

[Slappo]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1269727914' post='2081576']
There are churches around the world that have existed for centuries, and have traditions that date back centuries, and those traditions have penetrated the liturgical practices in some way or another.
Yet the flip side is, when the Catholic Church came to what is now Latin America, they forced the continent to become in essence Latin America. [b]The Church contributed to violence against the indigenous people of the regions of Central and South America, as well as America, and found clever ways to use theology to justify their sins against the innocent. Somewhere along the lines, the church forgot to let the Spirit move in peoples and cultures, and opted for power control and dominance in exchange.[/b]
And all of a sudden, we are in this place, Los Angeles, 2010, where cultures from around the world come into contact, and we are barely asking the same question that the Churches of the East asked more than a millennium ago, we barely have been given the opportunity to do so recently. Asking the question risks some of the wrong answers, but never asking the question only contributes to the divide and the stifling of the Spirit. Asking the right questions presents an opportunity that cannot happen otherwise.
I am from Los Angeles, and trust me giving people clear answers, the kind that, I don't know good simple homogeneous folk in the middle of somewhere, like say Kansas, might be able to enjoy. [b]We are being presented with the challenge to sanctify the identity and gifts of a multitude of people and cultures who we spent centuries oppressing and condemning.[/b] Yeah, I am sure the Coptic Christians can take great pride in their traditions, but how can Latino Catholics take pride in their traditions when those traditions cost them humiliation?

I think everyone in this thread supposes there are easy answers when there are clearly none.

Now, youtube does not work through my computer fiddler, so I have seen none of these videos, and I might find some of it too fluffy or nonsensical in the context of a divine event.

[b]I just find the arrogance at which people snub faith devotion incredibly annoying.[/b]
[/quote]

If you want to go Church hating, go somewhere else.

Also... who are "we" and what is this "question" that begs to be asked.

It is not arrogant to "snub faith devotion" that is contrary to the traditions of the Church. It is upholding Catholicism.

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1269729522' post='2081586']
Who in this thread is not white? I am curious.

One more fact to point out: Mahony was not at the RE Congress this year.
[/quote]

I am half Puerto Rican and my ancestors come from Spain: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1nfilo_de_Narv%C3%A1ez"]Panfilo De Narvaez[/url]

Not only do they come from Spain but they were Spanish conquistadors that tried colonizing Florida (and failed miserably )

[Laudate_Dominum]

Green Orion dancers ftw.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 March 2010 - 06:25 PM' timestamp='1269732345' post='2081608']
Hmmm.

According to the RE Congress Youtube page Mahony was present at the gathering:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucNCy-dH8Rc[/media]

P.S. - In the "opening rite" for the RE Congress I see nothing that is particularly indicative of Hispanic culture; instead, I simply see a lot of new age dancing non-sense. Sadly, to see Cardinal Mahony you have to wait till the end of this video.
[/quote]
I don't get youtube remember? I will just have to take your word for it. I was watching Whispers in the Loggia that filled me in that Mahony was not there due to an Immigration reform march in DC. Maybe it is last years video?

As for the new age aspect, yeah it is the sad and cheap attempt of older Catholics to find what it means to be an American Catholic.

However, like I said, if you never open the windows for fresh air, you get cabin fever, and you can never create the opportunity for the Spirit to work in culture. With a place as diverse and complicated as Los Angeles I think that younger generations will have to come up with more intelligent perimeters for exploring what inculturation means.

[Apotheoun]

L_D,

When I first looked at your post, I thought that you said "green onion" dancers.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1269732391' post='2081609']
I live in the midwest currently, and I do know several people who are good folk like I described. If you consider me an elitest, that is your own interpretation, and likewise several other people I have met out here, who are quick to stereotype me as "superficial" "granola" "plastic" "fruits and nuts" "homo-loving" "trying to ruin this country" or "too mexican" and I guess not American enough or something. It goes without saying, I have also never encountered so many who come across as xenophobes in my life. Maybe it just goes with fear of diversity, I don't know, while, still there are many honest people would probably give someone who is different a chance. I have lived twenty two years in so cal, and lived 4 years in the midwest. I probably would never have considered my California "lifestyle" or whatever "far superior" until I saw myself in reaction or opposition to what I have encountered here. But, I don't want to simply be reactionary and despite the insults I have received simply for being Californian or whatever, I do not think that should get in the way of what brings us together.

[b]I really think this thread does speak to some of the cultural divides in the Church in this country.[/b]
[/quote]

When a culture can't set aside it's own traditions in favor of what the Church permits, which is pretty generous IMO, it is the culture that is arrogant, not the Church. Just FYI.

The liturgy must be universal and if there are too many cultural additions (although they are permitted to a certain extent), it is no longer a universal liturgy. This is also why the Church has a universal language. Latin. (For the Latin Church anyways). When I go to Europe, when I go to Africa, when I go to any other continent, I should be able to follow the liturgy clearly and with ease even though it is in a different language and celebrated by a different culture. And they should all be reverent to the sacred mysteries that are present. They should all also conform to the disciplines of the Church.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='27 March 2010 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1269733233' post='2081614']
I don't get youtube remember? I will just have to take your word for it. . . .
[/quote]
I posted a still frame from the video, and can post even more pictures if that would help.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 March 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1269733281' post='2081615']
L_D,

When I first looked at your post, I thought that you said "green onion" dancers.
[/quote]
That would be cool too.

Saw ur buddy Chelsea last night btw. [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/banana_rawk.gif[/img]

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Slappo' date='27 March 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1269733073' post='2081612']
If you want to go Church hating, go somewhere else.
[/quote]

I do not think that absolving ourselves of repression of peoples is what Christ calls us to. And yet, I am still full heartedly Catholic, praying daily for our Pope. Maybe you should see me in a situation where people rattle off ignorant and hurtful things against the Church for the very crimes I just mention. There is a lot of anger over injustices that have happened, but I think it is unchristian for us not to find ways to make penance for it.

Sometimes I feel that this is the appropriate place for Los Angeles Church hating though?

[Vincent Vega]

What I was saying with my post about being white but non-Latin is that the traditional form of the Mass does descend from my Anglo-Germanic culture or ancestry.
I'm not, however, going to request kilt and pipes masses or lederhosen and alphorn masses (or, moving back farther, pine tree and ocean worship masses) because I know the mass is not about reflecting my personal heritage.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 March 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1269733518' post='2081622']
That would be cool too.

Saw ur buddy Chelsea last night btw. [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/banana_rawk.gif[/img]
[/quote]
He told me he would be in Ohio / Pennsylvania area for a while . . . something about Tiffany doing certification work for her job.

Green Onion song:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Eynmv7VE4[/media]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='27 March 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1269733281' post='2081615']
L_D,

When I first looked at your post, I thought that you said "green onion" dancers.
[/quote]
I SAW THAT TOO!

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 March 2010 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1269733518' post='2081622']
That would be cool too.

Saw ur buddy Chelsea last night btw. [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/banana_rawk.gif[/img]
[/quote]
lullz