One Simple Request For The Proclaimed Pillar Of Truth

[Gregorius]

I got the pillar of Truth for you- We at Phatmass call it the Catholic Church.

The main problem I see with your testimony, Mr._Vetter, is that it is not the testimony of the Apostles. Thousands of people followed Christ, but only the Twelve were charged with continuing to spread Christ's message by the power of the Holy Spirit (after Christ returned in glory to the Father). They conferred the Holy Spirit on believers, they are the ones who solemnly proclaimed and defined the faith, and without them the Gospel would never had spread to the four corners of the Earth. Even those who were found to be heretics all attempted to prove that their faith is the faith spread by the Apostles. The fact that you do not even try to do so instantly casts doubt on your testimony.

The next problem is your use of scripture. On one hand, you seem to claim the Bible is not the revelation of God to man, and yet you repeatedly use scriptural references on your arguments. But then the quotes you use are in fact old Testament writings. Does that mean you accept the Old but reject the New(or vice-versa), do you accept it all, or do you reject it all?

So in order for us to better understand each other and why you make the arguments you do, I have a few short questions for you:
1. Do you believe that Jesus, fully God, in the Fullness of time, was born as a fully human infant and lived and died the life of a fully human man(i.e. that Jesus, really God, really came to Earth as a real human being, in a real and tangible time and real and tangible place, lived a real and tangible life, and left real and tangible witness to record His real and tangible actions while walking the real tangible Earth)? I ask this because recently we had another user attempt to argue that Jesus was in fact not a real person but a metaphor or a sign for some intangible spirit-thing, and tried to use His life as recorded in the Gospel to prove it. It was horrible. 40-50 pages of posts repeating the same thing. Your theory of Divine Revelation actually sounds similar, and I'm trying to avoid something like that from happening again. Which is also why many phorum members don't want to participate in this debate, not simply because they can't, as you seem to imply.
2. The Scripture question I posted above. Do you believe the Bible has been misinterpreted or actually not accurate?
3. Do you understand the meaning of "docu-dump" and why in practical matters it is best to be avoided?

May the All-powerful Lord grant us a restful night, and a peaceful Death.

[Nihil Obstat]

Is there anyone here that has the patience (and potentially masochism) necessary to actually agree to a one on one debate with this guy?
I figure that going through with it is more or less proof of future sainthood.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 March 2010 - 02:05 AM' timestamp='1269666350' post='2081148']
Is there anyone here that has the patience (and potentially masochism) necessary to actually agree to a one on one debate with this guy?
I figure that going through with it is more or less proof of future sainthood.
[/quote]
Debate what? He is using spurious gospels [ specifically a 19th century forgery] which has tainted any conclusion he has, and refused to see the gospels were not CNN news reports. I actually read the file the first time around. There is no point debating fantasy unless you acknowledge it IS fantasy.Its like trying to tell an X-files fan it was only a TV show.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='todd_vetter33' date='27 March 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1269660690' post='2081098']
I am here because God asked me to share this with you. it's up to you if you take the time to test all things and keep that which is good.

You are correct that we serve different authorities.. I serve the Law and spirit of truth that God pours out on those of the truth who keep the Law of God.

If there is discord it's because one is speaking truth and one is speaking lies. If I am speaking a lie, I simply ask that this lie be illustrated with a page number from 1-36.

I am aware that no one can argue against it. I put Catholic doctrine to the test against the scripture of Time as defined by God to discover the truth of the matter.

This is a debate forum is it not? This is the place for you to debate or confirm that what you have been fed by the Magesterium of the Church to be truth. If what the Magesterium of the church has fed is truth then illustrating a single page from the study I share to be in error should be a simple matter. Is truth what the magesterium claims it to be? How is this any different than any other world religion that exists today?

If I am misguided as you claim, please give me a page number from the study shared where I illustrate that my perceptions have been misguided by the prophecies that proceeded from the mouth of God. It is clear that someone's perceptions on this topic have been misguided. This is why I am here. Truth is evidently important for salvation or Rome would not claim to be the source of it. I know truth to be from God.

I can assure you my intentions are sincere. I want to know if the voice that I hear since i received the spirit through repentance is telling me the truth. What I have learned from the spirit is truth from every angle. The word of God comes from God before it is recorded by man. To know that the truth is from God it must speak according to the Laws of God and the spirit of Prophecy. I know and illustrate that Catholic traditions and doctrines do not speak according to the spirit of Prophecy if they say Jesus was crucified on Friday. If Christ was crucified Friday, How was Christ in the hear of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights (Per the testimony of Prophecy) only to rise on the first day of the week if what Rome says concering Friday to be truth?

God Bless
[/quote]


Well, Todd, I am telling you that the voice you hear is not the spirit of Truth since we all know that satan can quote scripture and he often deceives people by appearing as an angel of light and filling them with spiritual pride. I can honestly tell you that God speaks to each one of us through His Holy Spirit in different ways and with different gifts and the spirit in me is saying that the spirit in you is lying to you. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But the good news is that you now know that you have been deceived and can move forward to the Truth after all, that is, you can know the Truth through the one and only Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church, if you will only humble yourself now, and stop believing satan's lies to you that you are somehow appointed by God to tell us these things. You have been deceived, Todd. Full stop, Period, Exclamation mark.

But your sincerity and passion are truly a wonder to behold and I know that God loves you. I am praying for your conversion.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1269666350' post='2081148']
Is there anyone here that has the patience (and potentially masochism) necessary to actually agree to a one on one debate with this guy?
I figure that going through with it is more or less proof of future sainthood.
[/quote]


The idea of future sainthood is so appealing that I almost wish I could take up your offer, but I know next to nothing, so I would be useless debating, and as cmotherofpirl said, what is there to debate with someone who only wants to proclaim his own delusions? I will pray instead.

[Cherie]

I love defending the long-held traditions of the Catholic Church!!!

Oh, and I'm not going to use the "Testimonial of Error" or whatever link that was, Todd. Sorry. I have better authorities, I don't need it!


I did some sleuthing, and here are some well-thought-out answers to your question, Todd.

[i][size="2"][color="#222220"]Jewish people in the First Century considered a portion of one day to be an entire day. Since Jesus was in the tomb for part of Friday, all day Saturday, and a portion of Sunday, this is considered to be three days. Mark 15:42 says that Jesus was put to death "the day before the Sabbath." If this is referring to the weekly Sabbath (which is Saturday), then Jesus would have been crucified on Friday.
[/color][/size][/i]
and here is another:
[i]
Actually there is factual evidence to tell us that Jesus died on Friday 3rd April, 33 A.D.

By law and custom, the Jewish people of Jesus' day took the Sabbath as a day of complete rest. Because no work could be done on the Sabbath, which we call Saturday, Friday came to be known as Preparation Day. It was a day when food and other things needed for Saturday were prepared in advance. This is our first clue to the date of the crucifixion, because all four Gospels state that Jesus was crucified on Preparation Day, a Friday (Mt 27:62, Mk 15:42, Lk 23:54 and Jn 19:42).

The Gospels also record that the crucifixion occurred the day before the Passover festival (Jn 19:14). This is a second important clue, because it gives us a solid connection with the ancient Jewish calendar system. By Judean tradition, Passover begins at twilight, the dividing line between Nisan 14th and 15th.

Putting these two Biblical puzzle pieces together, we see that the crucifixion must have occurred in a year when Nisan 14th happened to fall on a Friday.

Jesus was condemned to death by Pontius Pilate (Mt 27:26, Mk 15:15, Lk 23:25 and Jn 19:16). Ancient historians record that Pontius Pilate was Roman procurator of Judea during the years 26 AD through 36 AD. During those years, Nisan 14th fell on a Friday twice: on April 7th of 30 AD and April 3rd of 33 AD. So, we still need another clue to pin-point exactly the date of the crucifixion.

The scriptures tell us that at the time of the crucifixion, which was around noon, darkness covered the land for about 3 hours (Mk 15:33, Lk 23:44). Some people erroneously believe that this darkness was the result of a solar eclipse. We know they are wrong for two reasons: i) It was the season of Passover, which means there was a full moon, and there can not be a solar eclipse and a full moon in the same day. And ii) the darkness lasted for 3 hours which is way too long, for a solar eclipse only lasts for several minutes. Some people are content in believing that a miracle occurred that day; that the God-created universe (Gn 1:1) responded when the "light of the world" (Jn 8:12) was snuffed out (sic). Other people propose a theory that the darkness was the result of a khamsin dust storm. Either way, it doesn't help us to determine the date of the crucifixion.

(Ancient historians agree that there was a "failure of the sun" at noon around the year 33 AD. Second century writer, Phlegon Trallianus, records in his history, Olympiades: "In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [AD 32-33], a failure of the Sun took place greater than any previously known, and night came on at the sixth hour of the day [noon]..." But the exact date was not specified.)

The final clue we have to the crucifixion date is the clincher; In the book of The Acts, St Peter believes that the prophecies of Joel (Jl 2:31) have been realised (Ac 2:16). The sun has darkened, and the moon has turned red as blood. We have already discussed the sun being darkened (as described above). The moon turning into blood is a very graphic description of what we today know as a lunar eclipse. Scientists today, including those from NASA, are able to determine when a lunar eclipse will occur. Surely enough, they have calculated that a lunar eclipse did indeed occur on April 3rd of 33 AD. Those poor ole people at the day of the crucifixion didn't know what was going on when the moon turned to blood; they probably thought the world was coming to an end. If only they knew what science has taught us today; they would have known they were not witnessing a miracle, but rather it was only a lunar eclipse. But perhaps the timing of the crucifixion was a miracle... Perhaps God willed the crucifixion on the day of the a lunar eclipse so that future scientists can verify the testimonies in the scriptures.

(The report of Pontius Pilate, Governor of Judea, which was sent to Tiberius Caesar in Rome, agrees with the graphic description of a lunar eclipse that occurred during the crucifixion. It mentions "the moon, which was like blood...")

So, while the unfaithful geniuses (Ps 14:1) are trying to use science to prove to us that God does not exist, we who are foolishly faithful can rejoice (Jn 20:29), for God has given us scientists to prove to us that His Holy Scriptures contain truth. Jesus Christ died for our sins (1 Co 15:3), on 3rd April 33 AD. [/i] Edited March 27, 2010 by CherieMadame

[CatherineM]

I think you are getting Truth confused with Facts. Easy mistake. Indiana Jones teaches about Facts. If you want to study truth, you have to hang in the Philosophy department. The Fact of which day Jesus died on can never change the Truth that he did die, for all mankind, and rose from the dead.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='27 March 2010 - 07:43 AM' timestamp='1269690192' post='2081251']
Debate what? He is using spurious gospels [ specifically a 19th century forgery] which has tainted any conclusion he has, and refused to see the gospels were not CNN news reports. I actually read the file the first time around. There is no point debating fantasy unless you acknowledge it IS fantasy.[b]Its like trying to tell an X-files fan it was only a TV show.
[/quote][/b]

it was...only...a....TV show????