Lumberjack...

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 13 2004, 10:08 AM'] unless you're teaching some kind of David Koresh/Jim Jones/Heaven's Gate kinda carp...then yeah, you're not a TRUE Christian. [/quote]
Where do we draw the line then? Who's to say that it's okay to be wrong, but not as wrong as them? At what point do are mislead beliefs turn harmful?

You seem content with not being able to understand His Word.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 03:53 PM']
...from my earlier post.

anything and everything taught is weighed against scripture.

our own pastors tell us to do it...and our pastors usually (about 99.97% of the time know what they're talking about. and they tell us, don't trust me just because I'm a man of God up here at this pulpit, I want you to know for yourself that what I teach is truth.



we rely on pastors and counsellors and mentors because they have been saved longer than us...they are farther into their walk and have been thru more, and SHOULD know more about the Lord than a new Christian.

didn't Paul disciple and become the "spiritual father" of many people? he had to bring them up in doctrine because he knew the Lord more and had more knowledge and wisdom of him than they did.

its not heirarchical because we don't believe that one is more saved just because one is older....though this is usually the case.

a personal testimony, if you don't mind....an older woman, probly in her mid 60's, introduced me to this other older man, probly in his mid 60's as "someone who knew WAY more than her about God" yet she's more than twice my age... [/quote]
So you are willing to believe someone becuase he is older than you, but equally capable of being wrong, but not the Church who has said the same teachings for 2000 years?


Think about this....

It makes no sense to me at all.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Where do we draw the line then?[/quote]

"WE" don't draw the line anywhere, dusty one...the "line" is drawn out in the Bible for us.

[quote]Who's to say that it's okay to be wrong, but not as wrong as them? At what point do are mislead beliefs turn harmful?[/quote]

who's to say the Catholic Church has the whole truth? the Catholic Church? like I said, we are human, and even you say that "the catholic clergy don't always agree"...you know what that says to me? the Catholic Church errs too.

how do YOU know, apart from what the church has told you, that they do not err in their doctrine? sure, you search documents, but they all come from the same source...the catholic church. and even if they come from someone outside the catholic church, they must be approved by the church...which means that it gets conformed to what the church teaches...that even if there IS some form of independent thought, it is quickly snuffed out to preserve the teachings of the church.

mislead beliefs turn harmful when you take pieces of the Word of God, and apply them as you wish. they turn harmful when you assume things you shouldn't assume. they become harmful when you start relying on superstitions and myths, rather than what the Lord has given us in His Word. they turn harmful when you start relying on your own human mind instead of the Holy Spirit of God and the church that God has provided. they become harmful when you think you're good enough to discern them all... when you start to interpret it yourself...for yourself.

tell me dust, how does any of what I've posted, benefit ONLY me? how does it make people lift me above the station of a man of God? how does anything I've posted make me look like anything other than a forgiven sinner that now seeks to follow Christ down the PATH of righteousness. it is a path...not just a moment of salvation, then boom, I'm saved forever....its a path we must walk, run, and fight to stay on.

[quote]You seem content with not being able to understand His Word[/quote]

who said I didn't know His Word? I might not know ALL His Word...but that is what my life is for.

To live and love as God would have me live for Christ.
To serve and proclaim His Gospel to the lost.
To disciple brethren and sistren with the small amount of knowledge and wisdom I have...
To learn more and more and more of His word, guided by His Spirit and the elders of the Church, bind it to my heart, and defend it to the death.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 13 2004, 03:49 PM'] So you are willing to believe someone becuase he is older than you, but equally capable of being wrong, but not the Church who has said the same teachings for 2000 years?


Think about this....

It makes no sense to me at all. [/quote]
cmom...not because they are older than me, but because they have been walking with the Lord longer than I have...so they don't HAVE to be older...as I said, this is USUALLY the case.

how do you expect me to believe something that I can not know for myself is the truth? because you tell me it is? any rational human would not be able to do that. how can I be a part of something that teaches things that are out of line with what the Bible teaches...like the following list?

[quote]1. Presbyter (or elders) were first called priests by Lucian...2nd century.
2. Prayers for the dead...A.D. 300.
3. The VENERATION of angels and dead saints and the use of images...375.
4. The Mass as a daily celebration was adopted...394.
5. The beginning of the exaltation of Mary, and the first use of the term "Mother of God" by the Council of Ephesus...431.
6. Priests began to dress different from the laity and to wear special clothes...500.
7. Extreme Unction...526.
8. The doctrine of purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great...593.
9. Prayers began to be offered to Mary, dead saints, and angels...600.
10. The first man was proclaimed "Pope" (Boniface III)...610.
11. Veneration of the cross, images, and relics authorized...788.
12. Holy water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest was authorized in...850.
13. Veneration of Saint Joseph...890.
14. College of cardinals begun...927.
15. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV...995.
16. The Mass developed gradually as a sacrifice, attendance was made obligatory in...11th century.
17. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII...1079.
18. The rosary, or prayer beads (copied from Hindus and Mohammadans) was introduced by Peter the Hermit...1090.
19. The Inquisition of "Heretics" was instituted by the Council of Verona...1184, and was legalized and promoted by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.
20. The sale of Indulgences...1190.
21. The seven sacraments defined by Peter Lombard...12th century.
22. The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III...1215.
23. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III in the Lateran Council...1215.
24. The adoration of the wafer (host) decreed by Pope Honorius III...1220.
25. The scapular invented by Simon Stock of England...1251.
26. The doctrine of purgatory proclaimed a dogma by the Council of Florence...1439.
27. Tradition is declared of equal authority with the Bible by the Council Trent...1546.
28. The Apocryphal Books were added to the Bible by the Council of Trent...1545.
29. The Immaculate Conception of Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854.
30. Pope Pius IX condemns all scientific discoveries not approved by by the Roman Church...1864.
31. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals proclaimed by the First Vatican Council...1870.
32. Pius XI condemned the public schools...1930.
33. Pius XI reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "The Mother of God"...1931.
34. The dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII...1950.
35. Mary proclaimed the Mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI...[/quote]

I lay my faith solely in God and Christ. I look to the Bible and the elders of the church for direction...so yes, I respect tradition, as I have said before...but I only do so when it falls in line with the Bible.

It makes no sense to you because you do not see as I do. You do not think as I do. You do not comprehend as I do. and until you do, and I'm not saying you ever will, you won't.

God bless.

[Archangel]

Protestantism ... 1517

[the lumberjack]

Christianity ... 33AD.

[Archangel]

Church built on Peter ... 33AD

[the lumberjack]

Church built on Christ ... 33AD

thanks for the input Archangel, but I'll wait for dust, or even cmom, to answer.

[Archangel]

One more for ya:

Catholic Church compiles the bible ... 397AD

Take it away dust and cmom

[cmotherofpirl]

lumberjack so much of that list is wrong I don't even know where to start

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote][b]LumberJack:[/b]
who's to say the Catholic Church has the whole truth? the Catholic Church? like I said, we are human, and even you say that "the catholic clergy don't always agree"...you know what that says to me? the Catholic Church errs too.
[/quote]

LumberJack, the clergy dont always agree. so what does the clergy do when disagreeing with each other on doctrine and faith and teachings? They go to the Bishop of Rome for the final answer. The same thing St Paul did when they were having the discussion on if the new followers of Christ should be circumsized or not in Acts 15. St. Paul and the others went to Jerusalem to the Apostles and presbyters about this question. St Paul didnt make a decision, he went to PETER for the answer. This was the council of Jersalem. It was Peter that made the final call on this.

This is what the Catholic Church does when in question. They go to the Vicar of Christ, the Seat of Peter for the final answer.

--------------------
Now a question to you.

if you and another prot, or a group of people is the church, as some of you say. Then what does this mean:
-----------------------------------
Matthew 18:15-20 -
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
16
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17
If he refuses to listen to them, [b]tell the church[/b]. [b]If he refuses to listen even to the church[/b], then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
18
[b]Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. [/b]
19
Again, (amen,) I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.
20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

-----------------------------------------------

My question? If a group of prots is the Church, then a person wouldnt have to go 'tell the church' as 18:17 says because you would have already TOLD the church before then when you and the other two were talking with your brother about his sin.

A side note: Keep in mind Jesus was talking to the Apostles, not us!

What say you?

Edited April 14, 2004 by CatholicAndFanatical

[Justified Saint]

lumberjack, who's to say that the Bible is truth? Because the Bible says it is?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 13 2004, 06:55 PM'] Church built on Christ ... 33AD

thanks for the input Archangel, but I'll wait for dust, or even cmom, to answer. [/quote]
You are wrong, it doesn't say that in the bible...

[b]Eph 2:19 [/b]
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of [b]the household of God[/b],
[b]20 [/b][b]built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone[/b].


What is the household of God?


[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the [b]household of God[/b], which [b]is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth[/b].


Harmony in all books and letters of the OT and NT... The Catholic Church.



What Church can meet this prophecy of the new Church in the OT????

[b]Malachi 1:11[/b]
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.



What Church Worships where the sun never sets on it's worship? What Church offers a pure offering? (by the way, an offering is a sacrifice)

Note it says "from the rising of the sun to its setting". There are Catholic Massess all over the world. 300,000 a day from my understanding. Each one offers that pure grain offering.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote][b]From Dust[/b]
lumberjack,

When you say "what the Bible says", I read "what I interpret the Bible to say".

Can you convince me that when you read the Bible you are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit? If my non-Catholic neighbor reads his Bible and gives me a different interpretation than yours, how do I know which one of you are correct?
[/quote]

[b]His Response:[/b]
[quote]
dust, as you have said, we are all in different points in our walk.

if you feel drinking is wrong, based on what you read in the Bible, then it is wrong. to you.

no where in the Bible does it say that we can not drink, no matter what any denom says. it DOES however say NOT to drink to drunkeness. this is why many CHOOSE not to drink, to not even get into that situation.

there aren't too many pieces like this in the Bible, though another is Revelation and the events that will occur around/with it. its more of a grey area than salvation and the Holy Spirit and the other things Christ taught.

if your neighbor is a TRUE Christian, what they tell you about salvation, faith, and all the other MAJOR aspects of the Christian walk should be a near mirror reflection of what I post...like I said, I'm human, I can err from what I learn, but the Lord prunes away at me, as He does with all brethren.

I can't convince you to believe what I believe. its what the Holy Spirit convicts you to believe. You can come to church, as we all SHOULD, and learn and commune with the brothers and sisters, but ultimately, its up to you to walk YOUR walk. you should have people discipling and mentoring you, to keep you accountable and to keep you from going astray in doctrine...
[/quote]

You would be in trouble if you was in the 'No Spin Zone' my friend. You answer everything but the question at hand.

Again, a straight answer would be appreciated to help understand your theory.

Question refresher: Can you convince me that when you read the Bible you are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit? If my non-Catholic neighbor reads his Bible and gives me a different interpretation than yours, how do I know which one of you are correct?

In laymens terms - If you and another protestant came up to me and tried to give me your interpretations on a part of Scripture and both of you had a different thought on this interpretation, AND both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit on your thought...which one of you are right?

Edited April 14, 2004 by CatholicAndFanatical

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 13 2004, 06:55 PM'] Church built on Christ ... 33AD

thanks for the input Archangel, but I'll wait for dust, or even cmom, to answer. [/quote]
I'll address the errors in the list later... first this...

The Church was built on Peter.

[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "[color=red]And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/color]"
[b]19 [/b][color=red]I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/color]"

[b]John 1:42 [/b]
Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; 30 you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter).

The argument that Jesus was not calling Peter the Rock is wrong. Kephas means Rock.


[b]John 21:15 [/b]
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
[b]16 [/b]He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
[b]17 [/b]He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."





[b]Eph 2:19[/b]
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God,
[b]20 [/b][b]built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone[/b].


[b]What is the household of God?[/b]


[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is [b]the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth[/b].


[b]What Church of today that has been around since 33 AD fits this prophecy of the New Church in the Old Testament?[/b]

[b]Malachi 1:11 [/b]
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

[b]Note it says "from the rising of the sun to its setting". There are Catholic Massess all over the world. 300,000 a day from my understanding. Each one offers that pure grain offering.[/b]


God Bless,
ironmonk