Institutionalization Of The Gospel

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='21 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1269187221' post='2076925']
Typical Hassan.
[/quote]


Llllllloooollllllll!!!!!!!!!!

You got me!!!!!

[Seven77]

Back on topic...

1. Era, the Church is a Divine Institution with a Divine nature and a human* nature.

2. The heirarchy is at the service of the charisms.

*because her Members are human.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Seven77' date='21 March 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1269198617' post='2076995']
Back on topic...

1. Era, the Church is a Divine Institution with a Divine nature and a human* nature.

2. The heirarchy is at the service of the charisms.

*because her Members are human.
[/quote]
I would agree with that.

And I think that's an interesting way of putting it, that the hierarchy is "at the service of the charisms." The problem, however, when the Church functions as an institution, is that the Church ceases to be a facilitator of charisms, and instead the Church attempts to control and insure charisms/vocation.

So, let me propose a hypothetical example. Suppose someone has a charism for charity (I suppose someone can have a unique charism for charity...ala St. Francis). And suppose this person attracts other people to this charism, and thus begins a new religious life. What should be the hierarchy's role? As the Church functions now, this new religious life would become a new institution, a new religious order in the Church. Because institutions breed more institutions, this new religious order will probably be founding more institutions (hospitals, institutional charities, etc.). Thus, the charism which began with a person has now become divorced from a person and has become an institution, which the Church now manages (because the religious order is attached to the wider ecclesial institution).

In this example, I do not believe that the hierarchy should be creating institutional religious orders. I believe that the hierarchy's role is to be spiritual fathers to individual persons with charisms. The Bishop or Priest should speak with those people, should perhaps put them through a spiritual test, should test them in their fidelity to Christ. And after this test, the person should have the freedom to exercise their charism (even with others) without turning the charism into an ecclesial institution. In this way, we see how both the hierarchy's role and the freedom of the individual are both preserved, without creating an institutional dynamic in the Church.

This is just one hypothetical example. It doesn't exhaust what I'm getting at when I say that the Church should not function as an institution. But it's a useful example that comes to mind at the moment.

Another example is St. Paul's teaching on the veiling of women in Church:

[quote]If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God.

--1Corinthians 11:16[/quote]
Note how he doesn't lay down a law. Rather, he speaks in terms of "recognition." An institutionalized Church, like that of the West, can only function in terms of law, obligation, coercion, etc. But this passage from St. Paul shows how the early Church functioned in terms of witness. He is in effect saying, "This is how the Churches do this, not because of an institutional law, but because we are bearing witness to what we have received, and we cannot bear a different witness." This is a profoundly beautiful witness that is demanding, but that does not turn the Church's life into an institutional organization. In an institution, the institution tries to preserve things, and inevitably those things are divorced from the context of individual persons. In the early Church, each person took responsibility for their faith, because what held them together was the bonds of faith, hope, and charity. An institutionalized Church is held together by the impersonal institution. As the institution grows and grows and grows, the people become less and less attached by faith, hope, and charity. The Church ceases to be a supernatural family, and instead it becomes a social institution that binds people together. The faith ceases to be a personal act, and instead it becomes an object. This process of institutionalization is seen clearly in modern schooling institutions, which treat knowledge like an object that you give to someone else. Knowledge has ceased to be rooted in a personal search for wisdom, and has instead become a disembodied object that is "taught." Religious education perpetuates this by turning the faith into an institution called "Sunday school." In the early Church, becoming Christian meant being immersed into a supernatural family. Now, becoming a Christian means doing just enough to graduate from the schooling institution that you are put through. Becoming Christian has become a process of incorporation into the institutional life of the Church, rather than being a personal and free journey into a profoundly new way of living.

[OraProMe]

edit

Edited March 24, 2010 by OraProMe

[Saint Therese]

Is it just me or does Hassan seem to be doing a lot of drinking lately?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Makes me think of [i]Institution[/i] by Suicidal Tendencies.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[insert lol wut pear here]


[spoiler]
Sometimes I try to do things
And it just doesn't work out the way I want it to.
It's like, I try hard to do it
And I get real frustrated.
And I take my time
But it just doesn't work out the way I want it to.
It's like I concentrate on it real hard,
But it just doesn't work out.
And everything I do and everything I try,
It never turns out!
It's like, I need time to figure these things out.
There's always someone there going,
"Hey Mike, you know,
We've been noticing you've been having a lot of problems lately, you
Know.
You should maybe get away,
You'd feel a lot better."
And like, maybe you should talk about it,
Just leave me alone, I'll figure it out you know.
I go, "No, it's okay you know, I'll figure it out.
And they go, "Well, you know, if you wanna talk about it,
I'm just working on myself."
I'll be here ya know,
And you'll probably feel a lot better if ya talked about it,
So why don'tcha talk about it?!"
I go, "No! I don't want to I'm okay! I'll figure it out myself!"
But they just keep buggin' me,
They just keep buggin' me
And it builds up inside!

So you're gonna be institutionalized
You won't have any say
You'll come out brainwashed with bloodshot eyes
They'll brainwash you until you see their way

I'm not crazy - Institution
You're the one who's crazy - Institution
You're driving me crazy - Institution

They stuck me in an institution
Said it was the only solution
To protect me from the enemy, myself
To give me the needed professional help
Uh - I was in my room

But then again I was thinking about nothing.
And I was just like staring at the wall thinking 'bout everything
And then my Mom came in,
And I didn't even know she was there.
She called my name
But I didn't hear her.
Then she started screaming, "Mike, Mike!"
And I go, "What? What's the matter?"
She goes, "What's the matter with you?!"
I go, "There's nothin' wrong Mom."
She goes, "Don't tell me that, you're on drugs!"
I go, "No Mom, I'm not on drugs.
Why don't ya give me a Pepsi?"
I'm okay, I'm just thinking, you know.
I go, "Mom, I'm okay, I'm just thinking."
She goes, "No, you're on drugs!"
Normal people don't act in that way!"
She goes, "No, you're not thinking, you're on drugs!
All I want is a Pepsi."
I go, "Mom, just give me a Pepsi please,
Just one Pepsi!
And she wouldn't give it to me!
And she wouldn't give it to me!
All I wanted was a Pepsi!
Just a Pepsi!

They give you a white shirt with long sleeves
Tied around your back, you're treated like thieves
Drug you up because they're lazy
It's too much work to help a crazy

I'm not crazy - Institution
You're the one who's crazy - Institution
You're driving me crazy - Institution

They stuck me in an institution
To give me the needed professional help
Said it was the only solution
To protect me from the enemy, myself

I was sitting in my room.
My Mom and my Dad came in.
So they pull up a chair and they sat down.
They go, "Mike, we need to talk to you."
And I go, "Okay, what's the matter?"
They go, "Me and your Mom,
We've been noticing lately you've been having a lot of problems,
And you've been going off for no reason.
And we're afraid you're gonna hurt somebody,
We're afraid you're gonna hurt yourself.
So we decided that it would be in your best interest
If we put you somewhere
Where you could get the help that you need."
And I go, "Wait! What are ya talking about?!
We decided?!
My best interest?!
How can you say what my best interest is!
And what are ya trying ta say, I'm crazy?!
How do you know what my best interest is!
When I went to your schools!
I went to your churches!
I went to your institutional learning facilities!
So how can ya say I'm crazy?!

They say they're gonna fix my brain
But by the time they fix my head
Alleviate my suffering and my pain
Mentally, I'll be dead

Chorus (two verses):
I'm not crazy - Institution
You're the one who's crazy - Institution
You're driving me crazy - Institution

They stuck me in an institution
Said it was the only solution
To give me the needed professional help
To protect me from the enemy, myself

...Doesn't matter I'll probably get hit by a car anyway
[/spoiler]

[HisChild]

[quote name='Era Might' date='21 March 2010 - 12:42 PM' timestamp='1269200538' post='2077010']

Another example is St. Paul's teaching on the veiling of women in Church:


Note how he doesn't lay down a law. Rather, he speaks in terms of "recognition." An institutionalized Church, like that of the West, can only function in terms of law, obligation, coercion, etc. But this passage from St. Paul shows how the early Church functioned in terms of witness. He is in effect saying, "This is how the Churches do this, not because of an institutional law, but because we are bearing witness to what we have received, and we cannot bear a different witness." This is a profoundly beautiful witness that is demanding, but that does not turn the Church's life into an institutional organization. In an institution, the institution tries to preserve things, and inevitably those things are divorced from the context of individual persons. In the early Church, each person took responsibility for their faith, because what held them together was the bonds of faith, hope, and charity. An institutionalized Church is held together by the impersonal institution. As the institution grows and grows and grows, the people become less and less attached by faith, hope, and charity. The Church ceases to be a supernatural family, and instead it becomes a social institution that binds people together. The faith ceases to be a personal act, and instead it becomes an object. This process of institutionalization is seen clearly in modern schooling institutions, which treat knowledge like an object that you give to someone else. Knowledge has ceased to be rooted in a personal search for wisdom, and has instead become a disembodied object that is "taught." Religious education perpetuates this by turning the faith into an institution called "Sunday school." In the early Church, becoming Christian meant being immersed into a supernatural family. Now, becoming a Christian means doing just enough to graduate from the schooling institution that you are put through. Becoming Christian has become a process of incorporation into the institutional life of the Church, rather than being a personal and free journey into a profoundly new way of living.
[/quote]

Era, I know you've been having some struggles in your Church and potentially in your faith. I am not quite sure all that's behind your posting this, since I've only had a glimpse of your internal struggles by reading your posts about your frustrations with the legalism of the Church. I wanted you to know that I've been keeping you in my prayer, that regardless of where you end up, you always seek Christ and the peace that only He can provide. Seek the Holy Spirit at all times! Spiritual struggles are so incredibly difficult... especially when those around you that you thought would be there for you as a support system toss you to the wolves, so to speak. I pray that you're able to find someone, perhaps even a spiritual director, that truly is of help and doesn't tell you what one (priest) told me in anger, 'The Catholic Church is the one true Church, so sit in the pew, be a good Catholic and stop questioning her!'

We cannot grow unless we question our faith. If we don't question, if we don't process, then our faith only remains on the surface, or in our heads... never making it to our hearts. I liken it to growing pains, the gangly girl who's all awkward growing into the beautiful woman. She cannot become the woman until she grows taller, sometimes painfully so, outgrowing not only her clothes during physical growth, but outgrowing her child's ways of doing things during her mental and spiritual growth.

Anyway...

I can really appreciate this on a personal level. As many know, I've been keeping the Eastern Christian fast for Lent and have been going to the Eastern Church. The priest at the start of Lent said something that I think expresses this sentiment. Of course, the fast during Lent is much more strict (on paper) than the Western Church. No meat, no meat products, no dairy... all through Lent. During the week, no fish, no oil, no wine, except on major Feast Days (ie: the Annunciation yesterday). Many Westerners, especially Americans, say 'how in the world can we fast that strictly?'. Some can. Some cannot. So, the priest said, 'the only thing you cannot fast from during Lent is fasting itself. Speak with your spiritual father, choose you fast, and stick with it!' It allows the person some freedom. Then again, Eastern Christians are also much more encouraged to have a spiritual father/director. BECAUSE some/many 'guidelines' within the Eastern Church do not 100% have to be followed to the letter (those that involve personal discipline), it's important to have a spiritual father, lest the person fall into a kind of protestantism, doing what's 'right' for them, according to their own whims.

For me, it makes the Church seem more real, and less legalistic. It manifests more fully the concept of Church as a living, breathing entity. Don't get me wrong. Being a lifelong Catholic has made me into the person I am today. I've been blessed in many ways, as well as having learned many a painful lesson. But as my relationship with Christ grows the institutionalization that you recognize that many aspects of our Church has become, stifles rather than expands.

I have quite a few friends here locally that feel how you do. Our diocese, at least the churches I've attended, very much embody the institutional aspects you mention. One couple is now attending the Anglican Use parish. Another friend is now going to the Byzantine cathedral as her parish and will be making a Transfer of Rite this year. And two couples have turned toward Orthodoxy as of tomorrow, a Church that, regardless of what some people say, are fully recognized as having valid Sacraments by the Catholic Church, and hopefully one day will be in union with each other.

I will continue to keep you in prayer. I'm off to work and as of tonight I'll be in Church (I'm in the choir) every single day, sometimes more than once a day, until Pascha/Easter. So forgive me if I'm unable to respond, should anyone do so.

Have a blessed Holy Week and a Joyful Easter!

[sistersintigo]

[quote name='HisChild' date='26 March 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1269617508' post='2080574']
Era, I know you've been having some struggles in your Church and potentially in your faith. I am not quite sure all that's behind your posting this, since I've only had a glimpse of your internal struggles by reading your posts about your frustrations with the legalism of the Church. I wanted you to know that I've been keeping you in my prayer, that regardless of where you end up, you always seek Christ and the peace that only He can provide. Seek the Holy Spirit at all times! Spiritual struggles are so incredibly difficult... especially when those around you that you thought would be there for you as a support system toss you to the wolves, so to speak. I pray that you're able to find someone, perhaps even a spiritual director, that truly is of help and doesn't tell you what one (priest) told me in anger, 'The Catholic Church is the one true Church, so sit in the pew, be a good Catholic and stop questioning her!'

We cannot grow unless we question our faith. If we don't question, if we don't process, then our faith only remains on the surface, or in our heads... never making it to our hearts. I liken it to growing pains, the gangly girl who's all awkward growing into the beautiful woman. She cannot become the woman until she grows taller, sometimes painfully so, outgrowing not only her clothes during physical growth, but outgrowing her child's ways of doing things during her mental and spiritual growth.



I will continue to keep you in prayer. I'm off to work and as of tonight I'll be in Church (I'm in the choir) every single day, sometimes more than once a day, until Pascha/Easter. So forgive me if I'm unable to respond, should anyone do so.

Have a blessed Holy Week and a Joyful Easter!
[/quote]
What you said.