On The Number Of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More

[Miss Hepburn]

Dearheart.
Could you say that in a different way so I could understand what you just said.
Thank you

bunchie? we all know? universal extermination?
Sorry,
Miss Hepburn

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Miss Hepburn' date='03 April 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1270329377' post='2086281']
Dearheart.
Could you say that in a different way so I could understand what you just said.
Thank you

bunchie? we all know? universal extermination?
Sorry,
Miss Hepburn
[/quote]

If you stick around a few more days it'll become pretty clear

'twas just my immature way of saying that while the Bible is divinely inspired and must be considered in making a decision, it is not the only means by which we can know the truth of God.

[Miss Hepburn]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='03 April 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1270330357' post='2086286']
If you stick around a few more days it'll become pretty clear [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif[/img]

'twas just my immature way of saying that while the Bible is divinely inspired and must be considered in making a decision, it is not the only means by which we can know the truth of God.
[/quote]


What? A kindred soul?


Miss Hepburn

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='03 April 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1270330357' post='2086286']
If you stick around a few more days it'll become pretty clear

'twas just my immature way of saying that while the Bible is divinely inspired and must be considered in making a decision, it is not the only means by which we can know the truth of God.
[/quote]
Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, [b]whether by word, or by our epistle.[/b]

Love that verse.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Innocent' date='02 April 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1270257926' post='2085790']
Apotheoun, I'm glad you finally found this thread!

If you have time, is there anything you could tell me regarding my original question?
[quote name='Innocent' date='14 March 2010 - 08:57 AM' timestamp='1268578657' post='2072881']
This is the first time that I learn this. Is this the common consensus of Tradition or is it only St. Alphonsus Liguori who teaches this?[/quote][/quote]
I have never seen this idea proposed in the writings of the Church Fathers, so I really cannot add anything substantive to the discussion.

As I see it . . . God's mercy and forgiveness - as energies of His being - are infinitely beyond the infinite.

[Miss Hepburn]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='14 March 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1268605546' post='2073140']
God can no longer forgive sins when the penitent has stopped truly repenting.
[/quote]

Hi Brother Adam.

I humbly say I believe the above is an [i]incorrect statement[/i] and finally decided to say something.
I have no scripture to back me up probably - [b][i]I[/i][/b] have infinite forgiveness for all sorts of things
....my unrepentant dog, my unrepentant neighbor, my unrepentant ex...and I'm just little old me.

God Who is Love Itself - will never, ever, never- stop forgiving - sorry that's how my Father [i]is[/i].

I know it goes against what people have been taught - you can think I'm some rogue nut - but
that's how my Father is, period. If I can do it - how much more will my Father do it?

(Also, if a penitent is a penitent isn't he something else when he stops repenting?)

Take care,
Miss Hepburn

[i]Guess, I just stirred the pot, eh? [/i]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Miss Hepburn' date='04 April 2010 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1270395114' post='2086579']
Hi Brother Adam.

I humbly say I believe the above is an [i]incorrect statement[/i] and finally decided to say something.
I have no scripture to back me up probably - [b][i]I[/i][/b] have infinite forgiveness for all sorts of things
....my unrepentant dog, my unrepentant neighbor, my unrepentant ex...and I'm just little old me.

God Who is Love Itself - will never, ever, never- stop forgiving - sorry that's how my Father [i]is[/i].

I know it goes against what people have been taught - you can think I'm some rogue nut - but
that's how my Father is, period. If I can do it - how much more will my Father do it?

(Also, if a penitent is a penitent isn't he something else when he stops repenting?)

Take care,
Miss Hepburn

[i]Guess, I just stirred the pot, eh? [/i]
[/quote]
Doesn't it violate a person's free will to redeem them when they don't want to be redeemed?

[Miss Hepburn]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sweat.gif[/img]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Miss Hepburn' date='04 April 2010 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1270398502' post='2086614']
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sweat.gif[/img]
[/quote]

[Presbylicious]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='04 April 2010 - 09:22 AM' timestamp='1270398133' post='2086607']
Doesn't it violate a person's free will to redeem them when they don't want to be redeemed?
[/quote] What if the grace of God [i]makes us want[/i] to be redeemed?

Then it's not a violation of free will at all.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Presbylicious' date='09 April 2010 - 10:30 AM' timestamp='1270827022' post='2089954']
What if the grace of God [i]makes us want[/i] to be redeemed?

Then it's not a violation of free will at all.
[/quote]
God offers grace freely, but He does not force us to accept it.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='15 March 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1268627103' post='2073344']
Can't or won't?
[/quote]
Objectively, all sin is forgiven because the sacrifice of Christ pays the price of all sin. Subjectively, however, all sin is not forgiven because the soul must be conducive to the grace. Such conductivity is contingent on repentance. I would argue that it is not possible that God could forgive someone who rejects the forgiveness without violating that person's free will. Mercy is a matter of love and love cannot be forced. If it is forced, it ceases to be love. Given that, I think it is appropriate to say that God [b]can't[/b]. It's not that He won't, because He is Mercy and He would forgive on the subjective level if He could. To say that God can force His love on another person who rejects it is to say that God can make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it. Because this is a contradiction in terms, it can never be done.

[url="http://www.in-laymans-terms.com/2010/03/24/can-god-make-a-rock-so-heavy/"]Linkage to longer explanation[/url]

[rkwright]

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 April 2010 - 11:46 AM' timestamp='1270831598' post='2089989']
Objectively, all sin is forgiven because the sacrifice of Christ pays the price of all sin. Subjectively, however, all sin is not forgiven because the soul must be conducive to the grace. Such conductivity is contingent on repentance. I would argue that it is not possible that God could forgive someone who rejects the forgiveness without violating that person's free will. Mercy is a matter of love and love cannot be forced. If it is forced, it ceases to be love. Given that, I think it is appropriate to say that God [b]can't[/b]. It's not that He won't, because He is Mercy and He would forgive on the subjective level if He could. To say that God can force His love on another person who rejects it is to say that God can make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it. Because this is a contradiction in terms, it can never be done.

[url="http://www.in-laymans-terms.com/2010/03/24/can-god-make-a-rock-so-heavy/"]Linkage to longer explanation[/url]
[/quote]

Something popped in my head on this... is it even possible to say objective sin is forgiven? Seems to me that all sin, or at least sin that can be forgiven, is always subjective. We can say an act is objectively sinful, but without an actor (making it subjective) there isn't a sin. Sin doesn't just exist out in the air.

Am I crazy on this?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='rkwright' date='09 April 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1270832866' post='2089999']
Something popped in my head on this... is it even possible to say objective sin is forgiven? Seems to me that all sin, or at least sin that can be forgiven, is always subjective. We can say an act is objectively sinful, but without an actor (making it subjective) there isn't a sin. Sin doesn't just exist out in the air.

Am I crazy on this?
[/quote]

I think that we tend to use the word "forgiveness" as a purely relational thing. There are two meanings that are relevant here: we can forgive a debt (objective) and we can forget a debtor (subjective). When we sin, the effect of our sin is a rift between us and God. Christ compares this several times to the relationship between a benefactor and a debtor. A debt can be forgiven, and if it is, then the debtor is objectively forgiven, but that debtor may refuse the forgiveness of the debt. He may relish in it, as grave sinners do, or he may refuse the repayment because he insists on paying it himself, as the Pharisees do. In either case, the debt is truly forgiven on the objective level, but not on the subjective level.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 April 2010 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1270834744' post='2090015']
I think that we tend to use the word "forgiveness" as a purely relational thing. There are two meanings that are relevant here: we can forgive a debt (objective) and we can forget a debtor (subjective). When we sin, the effect of our sin is a rift between us and God. Christ compares this several times to the relationship between a benefactor and a debtor. A debt can be forgiven, and if it is, then the debtor is objectively forgiven, but that debtor may refuse the forgiveness of the debt. He may relish in it, as grave sinners do, or he may refuse the repayment because he insists on paying it himself, as the Pharisees do. In either case, the debt is truly forgiven on the objective level, but not on the subjective level.
[/quote]

Still this doesn't make much sense (at least to me). If you forgive a debt in the objective sense, the person is no longer a debter - whether they think they are or not (subjective). How can someone forgive a debt yet still call the other person a debtor when no debt exists.

My other thought on this (and just a thought I'm working through right now): sin only exists in the subjective, relational aspect. Sin does not exist in an objective since. When we say "action X is objectively sinful" we're not actually talking about a real sin, a real offense to God - we're speaking about hypotheticals. Sin only becomes manifest when an actor, subjectively, injures the relationship with God. Thus there can only be a "debt" with a "debtor". If the debtor refuses the forgiveness, then the debt still exists. But to say that objectively the debt is gone, but you're still a debtor is to call what is clean unclean - no?