I Feel Defeated

[homeschoolmom]

May I recommend again the [url="http://www.eccehomopress.com/"]Little Flowers and Blue Knights[/url] programs that I linked to in the Girl Scouts thread. It is a very good program, designed for young girls and boys. Several years ago, when we joined our parish, I noticed that we did not have any type of program like this and I found a like-minded friend to start one with. We had the blessing of our pastor and he allowed us to meet in the parish. It's very simple and inexpensive. All you would need is two or three more girls and their mothers.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='15 March 2010 - 08:51 AM' timestamp='1268657484' post='2073401']
My points are these:

1. Regardless of whether or not liturgies for children are good ideas, if a parish has one and the priest welcomes and encourages all the little ones to go, the kids that excitedly do as Father suggests should not be rejected.

2. Granting that children in the Latin rite cannot receive the Eucharist (and granting that the Mass is adult-oriented), efforts should be made to make sure that there is at least an atmosphere/ambiance, if not materials, conducive to a child's frame of mind. Have you ever had to abstain from the Eucharist during Mass? Doesn't that feel awful? Well at least you are an adult; at least you can reflect on the deeper theology involved, make a spiritual communion, etc. A little child is a little child. Old enough to feel left out and young enough not to be able to rationalize why. I'm not saying that every Mass must cater to the mind of a child, but surely something could be done to make Mass less boring to children. Unlike adults, they can't understand the info in tracts about how to get excited at Mass - or if they understand it, they can't apply it for an hour and a half of mostly sitting still and listening to big words. IF Mass was typically more like the earlier description of a particular Eastern Mass, it might be different. But seriously, think about it: from a small child's perspective, they are only going to Mass to visit Jesus and watch Mommy and Daddy interact with a bunch of other people for over an hour. Kids are messy and the typical Mass is not messy enough for them. It is neat and polished and tidy, full of prim and proper old people who use big words, sit still, and try to be as quiet as possible when the man in robes talks for what seems like days. Slow, sad-sounding lullabies are sung amidst all of this. Worst of all, the children don't even get to receive the Eucharist they came to see in the first place!

3. Parishes should ensure there are adequate facilities for small children. Adults get to have coffee in a social hall after Mass. Why can't kids have juice in a playroom?

4. Look at all of the grown-up magazines, pamphlets, and other various materials that litter the tables and shelves of the narthex. Where is the equal attention to kid-stuff?

5. Parishes should offer more activities and ministries for children outside of Mass and an absurdly expensive preschool.


...say what you will and stick your head in the sand if you want (I'm being general, not speaking to someone here), but Protestant children are excited to go to their congregational services and Catholic children typically dread going to real church.Why? Because in Protestant circles, children are the center of attention and often the center of the budget (even in the "grown-up service" har,har,har).

We are talking about children. You can't just say "grow up and appreciate the theological excitement of Catholicism". They are not grown-ups. That's the point.
[/quote]

It seems to me you are more upset about this than I would believe your child could be...seeing that she can't possibly "think like an adult" as you say, could it be possible that your disgust with the Church in these areas is just bothering you, and perhaps your little girl has already forgotten all about it...?

[quote]We are talking about children. You can't just say "grow up and appreciate the theological excitement of Catholicism". They are not grown-ups. That's the point.[/quote]

actually, when it comes to our Faith...we are all children...or at least, that's what Jesus asks us to become more like...

...i would venture to say little children know more about their Faith than most adults do...

The Dominican Sisters of Mary have an awesome program for children. Even before they start taking lessons to make their first Holy Communion, the Sisters begin a curriculum, which is pre-dominantly focused on the child's relationship with Jesus. One of the activities involves these 5-6 year olds to adore the Eucharist for one hour, once a week. You would think it was way above these little kids heads, and they would find it boring and they would "act up" during the hour. But I was pleasantly surprised to see how they looked forward to that time "with the Good Shepherd" and many of them were able to talk to Him as if they could actually see Our Lord in the Eucharist. I mentioned to Sr. Ave Maria, O.P., that I believe when we are all that age, we enjoy a "mystical union" with Jesus that isn't complicated by sin (since we are not of the age of reason, and cannot sin.) It's the only time in our lives where we can enjoy such a relationship, because as we grow up, other things get in the way. Sister and I got used to referring to the little children as "the little mystics," because some of the things they told us that happened to them during Adoration were out of this world! But i believed every story...

As for all the good stuff the protestants have for children,

Zigg, you should really try to start something in your parish that caters to children. I could see that perhaps your passion for this topic may very well be the Holy Spirit asking you to do this. Like I posted in my earlier posts, these are good ideas and if we can find ways to incorporate them into our own parishes, it would make our Church even stronger...

but please don't feel defeated and don't feel bitter...these programs and nice buildings and the strong sense of community that the protestants have will never ever compete with what our Church has, and that is the Holy Eucharist...and He's going to make sure your daughter never feels rejected again...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='15 March 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1268678935' post='2073561']
Again, to be clear, I am not referring to children-liturgies or other "replacement"-type services for kids as the kind of improvements I am looking for. I just think there is an overall atrocious lack of attention paid to the needs of small children in common parishes, from my experience.
[/quote]
Ok I confuse easy. I thought you were referring to the Mass, or are you referring to the parish in general?

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 March 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1268680678' post='2073576']
Can you explain your point more clearly?
[/quote]

[quote]Ok, so I'm immensely frustrated with something that seems to be a universal problem in parishes of my area: the lack of ministries for children. Almost every parish charges a fee for materials used in LOTW for children, and some don't allow new children to join "mid-term". Our daughter was rejected on three separate occasions for not having been "registered in time". Hell hath no fury like a parent who has to defend the Church to a preschooler who feels like the Church does not welcome her. Argh.

So we've been looking around and frankly, Catholic ministries for children are pathetic. Go to any Protestant building and you'll find an absurd amount of children programs. The children get involved to an amazing degree and the congregations seem to put them first in every way. Huge nurseries, epic Sunday school programs, etc., and there's never a fee. Like a Christian wonderland of adventure and learning. It makes me pretty angry that Catholic churches, at least in my area, don't grasp the importance of making sure that their kids feel #1. [/quote]


i have nothing against "Catholic ministries for children" or the like. i also feel the current status of such is prefect. just because the Protestant have an absurd amount of children programs doesn't mean there is a universal problem. i also deeply resent the attitude that of a previous poster that "many (adult) Catholics do not have the advantage of sound theological knowledge, much less the advantage of a devout faith-practice" to instruct there own children in the faith, etc.
when my own children were young they attended mass each and every week from the day they were born. they were indoctrinated by example, in the home and in public.

it is sad that today you donot see numbers of young families with children, like there use to be when i grew up. perhaps this is why there are less program for the little ones

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='15 March 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1268682724' post='2073592']
i have nothing against "Catholic ministries for children" or the like. i also feel the current status of such is prefect. just because the Protestant have an absurd amount of children programs doesn't mean there is a universal problem. i also deeply resent the attitude that of a previous poster that "many (adult) Catholics do not have the advantage of sound theological knowledge, much less the advantage of a devout faith-practice" to instruct there own children in the faith, etc.
when my own children were young they attended mass each and every week from the day they were born. they were indoctrinated by example, in the home and in public.

it is sad that today you donot see numbers of young families with children, like there use to be when i grew up. perhaps this is why there are less program for the little ones
[/quote]
If you don't mind I'll make a couple point-to-point responses.

[quote]i have nothing against "Catholic ministries for children" or the like. i also feel the current status of such is prefect. [/quote]

I don't think that there is a universal current status. At my parish for instance, there is a "children's liturgy of the word" which most of us will agree is inappropriate, or at least not ideal. That's all we have. There is literally nothing else for children, besides altar serving I suppose, which is not really comparable. So is there even a current status? Maybe there's a current ideal, but I don't think that there is anything common going on right now.

[quote] i also deeply resent the attitude that of a previous poster that "many (adult) Catholics do not have the advantage of sound theological knowledge, much less the advantage of a devout faith-practice" to instruct there own children in the faith, etc. [/quote]

While I understand your point in this, I disagree to a certain extent. Yes, parents are the primary educators, especially in the Faith, however I know a lot of Catholic families in which the children received exactly zero in terms of faith education. I also know that for a variety of reasons, there are many Catholics with a poor or outright heretical understanding of the Faith. Do you think Nancy Pelosi or the Kennedys have done a good job in that area with their kids? I have my doubts.
In this at least, I think there is a healthy middle ground.

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 March 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1268683064' post='2073596']
Do you think Nancy Pelosi or the Kennedys have done a good job in that area with their kids?
[/quote]

i don't know. what are you suggesting?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='15 March 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1268685415' post='2073616']
i don't know. what are you suggesting?
[/quote]
That they're not very good Catholics, have caused scandal to the faithful, and probably set a poor example of Catholicism for their children.
Of course I'm making generalizations about the Kennedys which are unfair. I don't know who all of them are, so my comment applies to the ones I am aware of. There may indeed be members of the Kennedy family who are orthodox and faithful Catholics. [/disclaimer]

Edited March 15, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[BG45]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='15 March 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1268668816' post='2073468']
I know it seems Protestant children are excited to go to their services, but the problem I have with a lot of Protestant services is that they are completely based in emotion. Everything "feels good" and it's all great, hip-hip-horray!!!! But what happens when the kids get older and the "feeling" is gone? That is a big part of Catholicism, the fact that we have TRUTH, and truth is truth, no matter what it "feels" like -- it's more meritorious for us to believe when we don't "feel like it" and that's something Protestants often completely miss. I know a Charistmatic Catholic who bemoans that fact -- so much stake is put in the "emotional" aspect of it, that when inevitably those emotions fade at times, they are left with very little to hold on to, since they focused too much on the emotional and not the actual.
[/quote]

Coming from a Protestant background, this paragraph jumped out at me. Most of the people I went to church with as a child, no longer go. Those that do, do so for mainly social reasons (the unfortunate running joke in high school was that Sunday was [b]Sin[/b]day for all the cleavage), or are in the employ of their denomination. The paragraph reminds me though, of a talk in my High School Sunday School class. They were warning us of the evils of liberalism that we would encounter in college, etc. So we went around, each telling our testimony, and most of them said, "I was so caught up in the moment when I was little, I didn't know what I was doing when I said I gave my heart to Jesus and was Born Again."

Did we have great kids programs? The best...well until an internal division split the place. However, we had the best Vacation Bible School. Mothers of Pre-schoolers groups. Sunday School classes for every age group. Three separate youth groups. And how much of it kept people involved once they hit college? Not much...in fact, by high school, we played Grand Theft Auto III on the wall of the sanctuary with a projector and an X-Box; the Youth Minister walked in to her son beating a prostitute to death with a baseball bat on the wall between stained glass of Christ's baptism and Christ with Mary crying at His feet.


Missy, Fr. C.M. the other week noticed during his homily that a lot of people were glowering at a woman taking her crying baby out. He turned it into part of the homily with, "Yes, that kid gets it! You should be upset about..." We're an older parish with no cry room or anything of the sort, so I appreciated it. I know a lot of "Catholics" like you described coming out of Confirmation, and they were part of the reason I never wanted to ever consider Catholicism.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='14 March 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1268602795' post='2073119']
[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1268601629' post='2073105']
Eastern Christian worship is quite beautiful, but it is also quite messy.
[/quote]
I think I'm in the right Rite after all. [/quote]
I probably should clarify what I meant by the word "messy" in connection with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

What I did not mean, by the use of that word, is that the liturgical actions of the priest (or other minister) are disorganized, or that there is a lot of spilling of things, or falling down that occurs during the liturgy (unless you count prostrations as "falling down" ); instead, what I meant was that the actions of the lay faithful are not governed by the [i]typikon[/i] (i.e., the book that contains the rubrics that govern the liturgical actions of bishops, priests, deacons, and the minor orders), which is why you will see a lot of individualized actions on the part of the faithful (e.g., some people will cross themselves at a certain point, while other people do not; some people may be venerating icons, while other people are not doing that, etc.).

[kamiller42]

I agree with Ziggamafu' sentiment. Some parishes could use a lot of improving in support of kids. And don't get me started on the non-existent young adult programs.

There 2 topics in this thread: Making the parish appealing to youth(Ziggamafu) & youth liturgy (Apo).

1. The parish I grew up in had children's liturgy for a while. We had kid's versions of the readings, homily, and songs. This was not about catering to the feelings of a child. I see now children's liturgy was about communicating ideas at an age appropriate level.

If you want to get an idea of what I mean, imagine the next mass you attend is carried out in a language totally foreign to you, say Japanese for me. Adult mass made as much sense to me as a kid as hearing mass in Japanese. My 5 brothers and I would take a row, stare at the backs and heads of adults for an hour, and hear adult oriented homilies. I got more out those children's liturgies than I can remember when we attended the adult ones. I still remember many songs from those days: "Father Abraham had many sons. Many sons had Father Abraham. I am one and so are you...," "And if the devil doesn't like it he can sit on a tack, sit on a tack...," "Noah built his arky, arky...," and on and on. What do I remember from the adult mass? Okay. I admit I remember "One Bread, One Body." It's was a popular song at mass and mostly at CCD.

Again, children's liturgy was about communication, not entertainment.

Later, as a young adult, I attended youth mass. Did it make me a better Catholic? Maybe, maybe not. What it did do, at a minimum, was keep me engaged whereas I might have fallen off otherwise. (I doubt it, but it could have had happened.) Again, this was not about feeding some emotions. It was about being part of a celebration where the message was talking "to me" and not "at me."

2. Our parish is pretty good about meeting the needs of kids. We have a great children's faith formation director. Our nursery is free but accepts donations. The children's faith formations charges a small fee for a year's worth of instruction, and it is warranted. The supplies those kids go through is a lot. What is sad is many parents have no problem opening the wallet for extracurricular activities like sports, but dropping a few dollars for faith formation? Nah! The parish even offers parents who don't pay the bill but their kids are allowed to attend anyway a chance to pay their bill: volunteer! And they still don't do it!!

Bottom line: No problem charging fees for children's programs if there is a substantial cost to holding it.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='apparently' date='15 March 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1268682724' post='2073592']
i also deeply resent the attitude that of a previous poster that "many (adult) Catholics do not have the advantage of sound theological knowledge, much less the advantage of a devout faith-practice" to instruct there own children in the faith, etc.

[/quote]

With all due respect, the majority of Catholics today born within the last few decades (and then some) don't even know the basics of the faith and are not devout. So many use contraception, support gay marriage, are pro-choice, and sometimes skip mass. Unfortunately, there are not that many exceptions. Heterox beliefs are abundant among the faithful. I understand that you knew how to serve as an example for your children and instruct them on the faith, but you are in the minority. I went to Catholic schools from pre-school to high school and both of my parents were Catholic. Those Catholic schools were jokes when it came to catechesis and my parents were definitely (and still are) ignorant about a lot of essential things about being Catholic. I had to learn about my faith from watching EWTN. Unfortunately, the poor catechesis I experienced beforehand is extremely common.

Edited March 15, 2010 by tinytherese

[add]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='15 March 2010 - 07:08 PM' timestamp='1268690935' post='2073653']
With all due respect, the majority of Catholics today born within the last few decades (and then some) don't even know the basics of the faith and are not devout. So many use contraception, support gay marriage, are pro-choice, and sometimes skip mass. Unfortunately, there are not that many exceptions. Heterox beliefs are abundant among the faithful. I understand that you knew how to serve as an example for your children and instruct them on the faith, but you are in the minority. I went to Catholic schools from pre-school to high school and both of my parents were Catholic. Those Catholic schools were jokes when it came to catechesis and my parents were definitely (and still are) ignorant about a lot of essential things about being Catholic. I had to learn about my faith from watching EWTN. Unfortunately, the poor catechesis I experienced beforehand is extremely common.
[/quote]

catholic schools are way better that public

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 March 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1268685595' post='2073617']
That they're not very good Catholics, have caused scandal to the faithful, and probably set a poor example of Catholicism for their children.
Of course I'm making generalizations about the Kennedys which are unfair. I don't know who all of them are, so my comment applies to the ones I am aware of. There may indeed be members of the Kennedy family who are orthodox and faithful Catholics. [/disclaimer]
[/quote]

o, so that is what happened, them palozi and kennidy kids didn't get to go the catholic pre-school. no wonder they turned out so bad.

[Slappo]

[quote name='apparently' date='15 March 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1268692897' post='2073677']
o, so that is what happened, them palozi and kennidy kids didn't get to go the catholic pre-school. no wonder they turned out so bad.
[/quote]

Pelosi and Kennedy are extremes...

The average Catholic does not have a Bachelor's in Theology, nor does the average Catholic read curial documents, papal encyclicals, the GIRM, the catechism, or even scripture on a regular basis.

The average Catholic does a poor job of catechizing, and often times it isn't their fault. The fact is that it is there.




Like I've said before. Such classes at a parish are a supplement to the faith, not the faith themselves. It ought to be that the parents raise the children in the faith and it is supplemented by the ccd classes. That is, the classes reinforce what the parents are teaching. It is good for a child's learning to be positively reinforced by more than just the parents.

[Slappo]

[quote name='apparently' date='15 March 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1268692520' post='2073672']
catholic schools are way better that public
[/quote]

That is completely subjective.

I'd rather a halfway decent public school than a heretical catholic school.

At least one of them my children will know the teachings are secular. The other are supposed to be Catholic but are often... in fact... heretical.