I Feel Defeated

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='15 March 2010 - 06:51 AM' timestamp='1268657484' post='2073401']
My points are these:

. . .

5. Parishes should offer more activities and ministries for children outside of Mass and an absurdly expensive preschool.[/quote]
I do not support points 1 and 2, but 3 and 4 seem reasonable. As far as point 5 is concerned, I find it odd . . . are you asking for the creation of absurdly expensive preschools? Or are you saying that the present structure is absurdly expensive and you think it is counterproductive?

[Cherie]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='15 March 2010 - 08:51 AM' timestamp='1268657484' post='2073401']

We are talking about children. You can't just say "grow up and appreciate the theological excitement of Catholicism". They are not grown-ups. That's the point.
[/quote]

You're right, but I definitely think there are some good ways to show the "theological excitement of Catholicism" in a way that is appealing to little children. They LOVE to be excited!

I came from an atmosphere where we had the perfect example of this. When I was in the convent, we used to have a public Sunday liturgy, for which a number of nearby families would join us. They all had children of various ages, from college-bound teenagers to little babes-in-arms. They, especially the little children, LOVED to come to Mass. Part of the excitement, I'm sure, was getting to see and talk to the Sisters in their long, flowing, full habits. (Too bad most parishes don't get to see THAT anymore!) The Sisters would talk to the kids before Mass, show them around and show them anything new, e.g. the May Altar we would put up during May, or the Creche scene around Christmas time. Oftentimes, the Sisters would show the kids a book we had (Like [url="http://www.tfp.org/books/jacinta-s-story/flypage.tpl.html"]Jacinta's Story[/url], the best children's book on Fatima that exists) or tell them religious stories, or just ask them questions about themselves. They also had altar boys who started out fairly young, and they loved doing it. The community was Franciscan/Dominican, and they lived that out to the full -- Franciscan incarnational charity and Dominican truth -- a warm, charitable atmosphere in which the Faith is taught and explained clearly.

The Mass itself, however, was beautifully reverent -- lovely old hymns, often in Latin -- but there was nothing "child-ish" about it, and the homily that our chaplain gave was VERYYYY LOOONNGGG -- great theological content, but nothing that a little kid would understand. And yet they all sat there just fine -- (ok it wasn't a utopia, sometimes babies would cry, etc!) ... it would give the family a good opportunity to explain the homily to the kids afterward, in terms they would understand (or for kids a little older, to see if they understood more than we give them credit for!)

It was a small congregation, so we knew everyone personally, and if a new person or family showed up, we always introduced ourselves and tried to get to know them a little better. I know that kind of atmosphere can't be reproduced in today's larger parishes, but I certainly took a lesson from them and kept it with me. Anytime I see a child in the vestibule who is looking at a statue or something, I smile and show them who it's a statue of, or what they're looking at (all with the parent's permission, of course). In children's terms, of course.

Anyway, I suppose that is a bit off-topic but I believe in being proactive. If there's something bothersome or troublesome about the way your parish does things, just roll your eyes and laugh about it. Mention it to someone who can do something about it, then let it go -- if they want to change things, they will, and if they don't, oh well, you did your part. Then take matters into your own hands, or at least as best you can. You probably can't start your own children's program, but you could something similar for your own family.

I know it seems Protestant children are excited to go to their services, but the problem I have with a lot of Protestant services is that they are completely based in emotion. Everything "feels good" and it's all great, hip-hip-horray!!!! But what happens when the kids get older and the "feeling" is gone? That is a big part of Catholicism, the fact that we have TRUTH, and truth is truth, no matter what it "feels" like -- it's more meritorious for us to believe when we don't "feel like it" and that's something Protestants often completely miss. I know a Charistmatic Catholic who bemoans that fact -- so much stake is put in the "emotional" aspect of it, that when inevitably those emotions fade at times, they are left with very little to hold on to, since they focused too much on the emotional and not the actual.

I guess what I mean is that I really feel like there are certainly ways to make the theological aspects of Catholicism exciting and appealing to children. I did it with my younger brother, and I hope to do it with my own children.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1268588709' post='2072942']
I am all for programs for children (e.g., outdoor activities, social events, educational programs, etc.), but I am not in favor of separate liturgical services for kids. Families should worship together.
[/quote]
Agreed.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='15 March 2010 - 09:51 AM' timestamp='1268657484' post='2073401']
My points are these:

1. Regardless of whether or not liturgies for children are good ideas, if a parish has one and the priest welcomes and encourages all the little ones to go, the kids that excitedly do as Father suggests should not be rejected.

2. Granting that children in the Latin rite cannot receive the Eucharist (and granting that the Mass is adult-oriented), efforts should be made to make sure that there is at least an atmosphere/ambiance, if not materials, conducive to a child's frame of mind. Have you ever had to abstain from the Eucharist during Mass? Doesn't that feel awful? Well at least you are an adult; at least you can reflect on the deeper theology involved, make a spiritual communion, etc. A little child is a little child. Old enough to feel left out and young enough not to be able to rationalize why. I'm not saying that every Mass must cater to the mind of a child, but surely something could be done to make Mass less boring to children. Unlike adults, they can't understand the info in tracts about how to get excited at Mass - or if they understand it, they can't apply it for an hour and a half of mostly sitting still and listening to big words. IF Mass was typically more like the earlier description of a particular Eastern Mass, it might be different. But seriously, think about it: from a small child's perspective, they are only going to Mass to visit Jesus and watch Mommy and Daddy interact with a bunch of other people for over an hour. Kids are messy and the typical Mass is not messy enough for them. It is neat and polished and tidy, full of prim and proper old people who use big words, sit still, and try to be as quiet as possible when the man in robes talks for what seems like days. Slow, sad-sounding lullabies are sung amidst all of this. Worst of all, the children don't even get to receive the Eucharist they came to see in the first place!

3. Parishes should ensure there are adequate facilities for small children. Adults get to have coffee in a social hall after Mass. Why can't kids have juice in a playroom?


[/quote]
1. No priest should ever reject a child. Period.

2.Sorry, we should not attempt to change the Mass to please any group. The Mass is the Mass, not entertainment. We sit, stand, kneel pray and sing and children can join in as they are able. Bring your childs picture prayer book of the Mass and they can find the picture of what father is doing next. Teach them to sing the Alleluia, and bless themselves etc. If they cry, you stand in the back of the church til they calm down.

3. I do think a playroom is a good idea after Mass so kids can run off their energies, and in fact could be a promised reward for good behavior:)

[Nihil Obstat]

Not to sound dismissive, but it seems to me that our current situation is a perfect environment for an informal organization among Catholic parents. A good way to start really getting to know people in your faith community, maybe like the older days of small, tightly knit Church communities? Why not get together with like-minded Catholic families a few times a week? There'd be a pretty decent spread of ages of children, so lots of varied socializing opportunities, plus it's a good opportunity for the adults to get to know each other and share their faith perspective.
It's an idea.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='14 March 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1268574931' post='2072866']
Ok, so I'm immensely frustrated with something that seems to be a universal problem in parishes of my area: the lack of ministries for children. Almost every parish charges a fee for materials used in LOTW for children, and some don't allow new children to join "mid-term". Our daughter was rejected on three separate occasions for not having been "registered in time". Hell hath no fury like a parent who has to defend the Church to a preschooler who feels like the Church does not welcome her. Argh.

So we've been looking around and frankly, Catholic ministries for children are pathetic. Go to any Protestant building and you'll find an absurd amount of children programs. The children get involved to an amazing degree and the congregations seem to put them first in every way. Huge nurseries, epic Sunday school programs, etc., and there's never a fee. Like a Christian wonderland of adventure and learning. It makes me pretty angry that Catholic churches, at least in my area, don't grasp the importance of making sure that their kids feel #1.
[/quote]
Ziggy I'm not trying to be dismissive, and I have been in your shoes, I had 3 kids in 5 years and they all went to Mass with us. I just don't think its the churchs job to make kids feel #1, its not about them. My protestant nieghbors' churchs have all the whistles and bells you talk about at their facility, but every kid and their friends dropped out as soon the parties and playtime stopped, and they had other places to hang with their friends.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='15 March 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1268676607' post='2073542']
Not to sound dismissive, but...
[/quote]


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='15 March 2010 - 01:16 PM' timestamp='1268676975' post='2073543']
Ziggy I'm not trying to be dismissive, and...
[/quote]

[Slappo]

[quote name='apparently' date='14 March 2010 - 06:00 AM' timestamp='1268575238' post='2072867']
sorry
this is the duty and right of the mother and father [b]alone[/b] to take care of
[/quote]

Theologically incorrect on so many levels. First of all, Godparents also have a duty to ensure that their Godchild is educated in the faith. Secondly, when a child is baptized, the parish is asked to accept the child with the understanding that the parish will become partially responsible for the education and upbringing of the child in the Catholic faith.

The parents are the primary educators of the child, but children learn from far more than just parents. Education starts in the home, it does not stop there.

[quote name='apparently' date='14 March 2010 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1268619406' post='2073247']
The fundamental right and duty involved in Catholic Education is that of the parents: Canon 793§1 states: "[i]Parents, and those who take their place, have both the obligation and the right to educate their children. Catholic parents have also the duty and the right to choose those means and institutes which, in their local circumstances, can best promote the catholic education of their children[/i]".

Among the means to achieving this goal are schools:

Canon 796 §1states: "[i]Among the means of advancing education, Christ's faithful are to consider schools as of great importance, since they are the principal means of helping parents to fulfil their role in education[/i]".

But schools are not to be seen as substitutes for parents. Rather, as canon 796 §2 says, "[i]There must be the closest cooperation between parents and the teachers to whom they entrust their children to be educated. In fulfilling their task, teachers are to collaborate closely with the parents and willingly listen to them[/i]".


now that my children have lift the nest, i miss our short (special) time togetherand thank God every day for my great blessing's
[/quote]

See above. These canon laws do not disregard the parish role in the formation of children. They simply reinstate that it is the primary responsibility of the parent. In fact if anything, these laws show the importance of a parish to offer programs to help educate the children. These parish programs should be a supplement to the education of the children, but they should still exist.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Slappo' date='15 March 2010 - 02:20 PM' timestamp='1268677224' post='2073546']
Theologically incorrect on so many levels. First of all, Godparents also have a duty to ensure that their Godchild is educated in the faith. Secondly, when a child is baptized, the parish is asked to accept the child with the understanding that the parish will become partially responsible for the education and upbringing of the child in the Catholic faith.

The parents are the primary educators of the child, but children learn from far more than just parents. Education starts in the home, it does not stop there.



See above. These canon laws do not disregard the parish role in the formation of children. They simply reinstate that it is the primary responsibility of the parent. In fact if anything, these laws show the importance of a parish to offer programs to help educate the children. [b]These parish programs should be a supplement to the education of the children, but they should still exist.[/b]
[/quote]

YES. THANK YOU.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='15 March 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1268677782' post='2073550']
YES. THANK YOU.
[/quote]
Of course they should exist, however they are not a substitute for taking your kids to Mass at whatever age.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='15 March 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1268676975' post='2073543']
Ziggy I'm not trying to be dismissive, and I have been in your shoes, I had 3 kids in 5 years and they all went to Mass with us. I just don't think its the churchs job to make kids feel #1, its not about them. My protestant nieghbors' churchs have all the whistles and bells you talk about at their facility, but every kid and their friends dropped out as soon the parties and playtime stopped, and they had other places to hang with their friends.
[/quote]

Just because all the "bells and whistles" in the world will amount to nothing in the absence of proper faith-formation at home (to say nothing of the absence of the Real Presence at church) doesn't mean that parishes shouldn't try to add bells and whistles of their own.

Church is about Christ and Mass is about the Real Presence of Sacrifice; nevertheless, the children are indeed #1 and, insofar as the particular parish [i][u]congregation[/u] [/i]is concerned, it [i]is[/i] all about them. Of the people, the children are the future. And lest we forget, many Catholics do not have the advantage of sound theological knowledge, much less the advantage of a devout faith-practice. What the parish offers the children may be the best that the children ever get.

[Ziggamafu]

Again, to be clear, I am not referring to children-liturgies or other "replacement"-type services for kids as the kind of improvements I am looking for. I just think there is an overall atrocious lack of attention paid to the needs of small children in common parishes, from my experience.

[Nihil Obstat]

Zigg, did you see my post? What is your opinion on that take?

[add]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='15 March 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1268678718' post='2073559']
Just because all the "bells and whistles" in the world will amount to nothing in the absence of proper faith-formation at home (to say nothing of the absence of the Real Presence at church) doesn't mean that parishes shouldn't try to add bells and whistles of their own.

Church is about Christ and Mass is about the Real Presence of Sacrifice; nevertheless, the children are indeed #1 and, insofar as the particular parish [i][u]congregation[/u] [/i]is concerned, it [i]is[/i] all about them. Of the people, the children are the future. And lest we forget, many Catholics do not have the advantage of sound theological knowledge, much less the advantage of a devout faith-practice. What the parish offers the children may be the best that the children ever get.
[/quote]
Your reasoning that [quote] many Catholics do not have the advantage of sound theological knowledge, much less the advantage of a devout faith-practice.[/quote] is precisely why I'm against it and your radical ideas.

You really believe you are better, smarter, and superior in your faith, than many Catholics and can do better?

I like the way things are in my church, their can only be one head of the household, the father.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='15 March 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1268680266' post='2073573']
Your reasoning that [.......] is precisely why I'm against it and your radical ideas.

You really believe you are better, smarter, and superior in your faith, than many Catholics and can do better?

I like the way things are in my church, their can only be one head of the household, the father.
[/quote]
Can you explain your point more clearly?

Edited March 15, 2010 by Nihil Obstat