I Feel Defeated

[tinytherese]

How sad it is that so many parents think that just dropping their kids off at any ol' ccd or Catholic school is enough to instruct them in the faith.So then catechists are often expected to teach them everything. Parish and school catechesis is only supposed to be supplemental to what parents teacher their kids.

Edited March 15, 2010 by tinytherese

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='14 March 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1268598364' post='2073055']
I am basically referring to any parish-based ministries that facilitate a young child's sense of need, acceptance, and participation. When a child walks into most Protestant buildings, the child is immediately aware of (and sometimes in awe of) a myriad of opportunities and activities that SCREAM, "You are important to us, you are welcome, we love you, and we include you - no strings attached!" Other posts have mentioned examples these various activities.

At Mass, children get the idea that Church is [i]mostly [/i]for grown-ups; sure I have educated my pre-schooler to the best of my ability, but even for her, although she understands that [i]everyone [/i]goes to Mass to receive Jesus and [i]everyone [/i]gives themselves to Jesus, the [i]way [/i]this takes place revolves around the adults. To make matters worse, she gets to look at her Eucharistic Jesus, but she can't touch or receive Him. And then all the grown-ups file out for grown-up coffee and grown-up conversations (if they even stay at all).

I am proud that my little four year old actually understands and appreciates her "visits to Jesus", but she's gotta feel a little left out. And I know she was hurt and confused when she was kicked out of Sunday-school after the priest had told her and all the other parish children to go.

And what of the lack of something as simple as a nursery? Some parishes provide a "cry room" but none that I have seen amount to anything close to a facility that says "we care" per the social and financial standards that America is blessed to have. Usually, if there is any space allotted at all, it is a dark, box-like room that says, "Ew. You are annoying us. To the shadows with you!"

So what happens when your child is fussy? Perhaps she missed her nap time. Perhaps she is a bit sick, though not so sick that you feel warrant to skip Mass. Perhaps anything. The point is you have a fussy child and it would be rude to stay in the sanctuary. In most Protestant buildings, there would be luxurious mini-estates with full-service fine dining and Bible themed mascots handing out children activities based on the day's sermon. Perhaps a complimentary humpback whale. Anything to help the child ease out of fussiness and relieve a parent's sky-rocketing stress level.

What do you get at most Catholic churches? Empty hallways and adult-themed decorations. Maybe a pamphlet on how to cope with aging or fliers that advertise local retirement communities (if you're lucky, they might at least have colorful pictures to distract your screaming kid). That's it.
[/quote]
I don't see the need for kid-themed stuff at Church, we go there to be with Jesus as members of the Body of Christ, not to socialize or be entertained. If your child fusses you stand in the back of the Church til they quiet down. I spend many a year listening to Fathers' homily thru the glass doors. Kids participate at Mass when they learn to sing, kneel, stand and go to Communion when they become of age, sing in the choir etc, and serve the Church.
The Church should offer a wider variety of activities for young people outside of Sunday Mass, but not as an alternative activity.

[Saint Therese]

What she said.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1268600378' post='2073091']
I am not for establishing "Children's Liturgies," because the liturgy is not about creating separate groups within the parish, nor is it about meeting social "needs."
[/quote]

agreed. This is my objection to Lifeteen (and teen Masses in general)

[quote]
Now, part of the problem with the Church today is that many parishes, for a variety of reasons, are simply too large. A parish - according to tradition - should have ONE Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, and not several, because the one Eucharist signifies the unity of the one Body of Christ in that geographic location. In fact, in the ancient Church it was forbidden to celebrate the Eucharist multiple times on a single altar on the same day. This tradition is still maintained among Eastern Orthodox Christians, who intentionally keep their parishes small. When a parish gets too large, a group of families is sent off to found another Christian temple, which may only be a few blocks or a few miles away, and this "eastern" practice is not unique, because the Roman Catholic Church used to do the same thing, and anyone who walks around in a city like San Francisco can see that this was the case, because Catholic Churches can be found only a few blocks away from each other (although most now are sadly closed in favor of mega-Churches).
[/quote]

I generally agree, but I don't have a problem with having a morning Low Mass (or "lower" Mass, for NO parishes) and a midday High Mass (and likewise, "higher" Masses). Also, there are those for whom work on Sunday is truly a necessity. Having multiple Liturgies makes it more possible for them to attend Mass.

[quote]
Education programs, fun activities, Bible camps, etc., are all great ideas, and I would encourage the creation of things like that for kids in every parish, but worship is something that manifests the one body of Christ, which is why I am opposed to "Children's Liturgies," "Teen Liturgies," "Polka Liturgies," "Senior Citizen Liturgies," and whatever other kind of worship service that a modern liturgist can devise.
[/quote]

oh, you covered the teen Masses.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='14 March 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1268602724' post='2073116']
Apo, I think you have gathered how much I respect and envy some aspects of Eastern culture (to say nothing of Eastern theology). There are a lot of areas in which I think the East is better than the West. I have that fundamental contention regarding the developmental awareness of doctrine, but that's about it. I think you are correct about the ideal of Mass being celebrated as a family. [b]That doesn't mean a parish shouldn't do everything it can to facilitate the needs of the very young. [/b]

[b]Little children should have a plethora of free opportunities to [i][u]socially bond[/u] in their [i]parish[/i]-family and [u]communally learn[/u] and practice their faith[/i] in exciting, age-appropriate ways.[/b] [b]You don't have to come up with replacement-liturgies in order to do that (although if you do have a Liturgy of the Word for children, you best mean it when, during Mass, you welcome ALL the little children get up and go to it). The social-sphere of childhood faith-development and facilitation of parent/child-related needs is what I see being horribly neglected in Catholic parishes of my area. The Protestants are putting us to shame.[/b]
[/quote]

I object strongly to the idea of using the Children's Liturgy of the Word as an opportunity for bonding socially. The Liturgy was never meant to be that opportunity, and it is the job of the parent to provide age appropriate worship in the home. Of course I don't mind gathering outside of Mass to pray with children, but it is a terrible mistake to take them away from the Mass.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1268603632' post='2073129']
Liturgy is life, and life is a little bit messy.
[/quote]

Ideally life isn't messy, and the Liturgy reflects the ideal spiritual order.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='14 March 2010 - 11:17 PM' timestamp='1268619478' post='2073249']
How sad it is that so many parents think that just dropping their kids off at any ol' ccd or Catholic school is enough to instruct them in the faith.So then catechists are often expected to teach them everything. Parish and school catechesis is only supposed to be supplemental to what parents teacher their kids.
[/quote]

You are lucky if that is the reason they are dropping them off. Half the time it is an hour of insanely cheap babysitting.

[MissyP89]

My dear friend is a mother of three, two young girls and one about to arrive. She's an Episcopalian convert, and has been driven to tears more than once by the horrible things people have said to her during and after Mass when her children cry. The priest has been similarly cold to her, and finally, when one parishioner suggested she might not come again until the children were older, she left. She's now back at her old church where her children are accepted and loved. It causes her a great deal of pain, but when her oldest started asking her why everyone was so mean to them, she felt it was all she could do for the good of her family.

Our children need to not be pushed back into a segregated corner where they are left to feel not good enough for Jesus, and welcomed. They need to be educated by the parents, yes, but in a world where the catechesis at home is next to nothing, parishes need to respond. Not one of the people that went through CCD with me goes to Mass today. I came back to the Church through Phatmass, and not through any act of my parish. I was actually turned away by my first parish because of a physical disability. They told my mother that unless I was in a wheelchair I couldn't attend CCD as they were afraid of the legal action should I fall on the property. Needless to say my parents have a very low opinion of the Church, and now that I've returned, they can't understand how I can be a part of the same organization that rejected me.

I guess the best thing we can do is roll up our sleeves and get in there, you know? As soon as I have the means, I'm going to teach CCD. I don't ever want kids to walk away with the "Catholicism" I believed after Confirmation.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='15 March 2010 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1268630082' post='2073360']
My dear friend is a mother of three, two young girls and one about to arrive. She's an Episcopalian convert, and has been driven to tears more than once by the horrible things people have said to her during and after Mass when her children cry. The priest has been similarly cold to her, and finally, when one parishioner suggested she might not come again until the children were older, she left. She's now back at her old church where her children are accepted and loved. It causes her a great deal of pain, but when her oldest started asking her why everyone was so mean to them, she felt it was all she could do for the good of her family.

Our children need to not be pushed back into a segregated corner where they are left to feel not good enough for Jesus, and welcomed. They need to be educated by the parents, yes, but in a world where the catechesis at home is next to nothing, parishes need to respond. Not one of the people that went through CCD with me goes to Mass today. I came back to the Church through Phatmass, and not through any act of my parish. I was actually turned away by my first parish because of a physical disability. They told my mother that unless I was in a wheelchair I couldn't attend CCD as they were afraid of the legal action should I fall on the property. Needless to say my parents have a very low opinion of the Church, and now that I've returned, they can't understand how I can be a part of the same organization that rejected me.

I guess the best thing we can do is roll up our sleeves and get in there, you know? As soon as I have the means, I'm going to teach CCD. I don't ever want kids to walk away with the "Catholicism" I believed after Confirmation.
[/quote]

That's so sad. Preaching and emphasizing to love one's neighbor and then to treat other parishioners like that is hypocritical and disgraceful.

[MissyP89]

No kidding! It also makes apologetics nearly impossible with my family. I try to preach the Gospel, and the response I usually get is "Well, then why do they not DO those things?"

Honestly, if not for the Real Presence, I'd have left a long time ago. I was almost in tears by the time Mass was over this week at how [i]dead[/i] my parish is. I've been going to the Newman house, and it's sobering to know the Church out in "the real world" isn't like that at all. Thank God for His grace sustaining me, that's all I can say.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='15 March 2010 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1268631138' post='2073366']
I try to preach the Gospel, and the response I usually get is "Well, then why do they not DO those things?"

[/quote]

That's definitely a big stumbling block in evangelizing. As St. Francis of Assissi is quoted, "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words when necessary." Just imagine how many more converts and reverts we could get if every single Catholic did what the Church taught and stood for and lived out the true spirit of the faith.

[MissyP89]

Looks like we need to get praying!

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='14 March 2010 - 10:14 PM' timestamp='1268630082' post='2073360']
My dear friend is a mother of three, two young girls and one about to arrive. She's an Episcopalian convert, and has been driven to tears more than once by the horrible things people have said to her during and after Mass when her children cry. The priest has been similarly cold to her, and finally, when one parishioner suggested she might not come again until the children were older, she left. She's now back at her old church where her children are accepted and loved. It causes her a great deal of pain, but when her oldest started asking her why everyone was so mean to them, she felt it was all she could do for the good of her family.

Our children need to not be pushed back into a segregated corner where they are left to feel not good enough for Jesus, and welcomed. They need to be educated by the parents, yes, but in a world where the catechesis at home is next to nothing, parishes need to respond. Not one of the people that went through CCD with me goes to Mass today. I came back to the Church through Phatmass, and not through any act of my parish. I was actually turned away by my first parish because of a physical disability. They told my mother that unless I was in a wheelchair I couldn't attend CCD as they were afraid of the legal action should I fall on the property. Needless to say my parents have a very low opinion of the Church, and now that I've returned, they can't understand how I can be a part of the same organization that rejected me.

I guess the best thing we can do is roll up our sleeves and get in there, you know? As soon as I have the means, I'm going to teach CCD. I don't ever want kids to walk away with the "Catholicism" I believed after Confirmation.
[/quote]

thats terrible! when i went to church and there were loud children, our pastor would sometimes bring them up to the front with him. get them to participate, or sit in the cool chairs, look at the cool religious stuff, paintings etc, or sometimes if he was doing a piece on a story from the bible, he might get them to read out part, say on the story of Moses.

that was a cool guy.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 08:59 PM' timestamp='1268600378' post='2073091']
I am not for establishing "Children's Liturgies," because the liturgy is not about creating separate groups within the parish, nor is it about meeting social "needs."

Now, part of the problem with the Church today is that many parishes, for a variety of reasons, are simply too large. A parish - according to tradition - should have ONE Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, and not several, because the one Eucharist signifies the unity of the one Body of Christ in that geographic location. In fact, in the ancient Church it was forbidden to celebrate the Eucharist multiple times on a single altar on the same day. This tradition is still maintained among Eastern Orthodox Christians, who intentionally keep their parishes small. When a parish gets too large, a group of families is sent off to found another Christian temple, which may only be a few blocks or a few miles away, and this "eastern" practice is not unique, because the Roman Catholic Church used to do the same thing, and anyone who walks around in a city like San Francisco can see that this was the case, because Catholic Churches can be found only a few blocks away from each other (although most now are sadly closed in favor of mega-Churches).

Finally, as far as kids screaming is concerned, I do not mind at all when a kid screams at Church, and I honestly would prefer that kids make noise and move around in Church (n.b., in a traditional Eastern parish there are no pews), touching the icons and learning how to make prostrations and venerate icons by seeing their parents and other adults practicing the faith in God's house. I have seen kids cry and make a certain amount of noise in the Orthodox Churches I have visited, and no one seems to mind at all. In fact, that to me IS Church, and I prefer that kind of chaotic activity, which shows the life and vibrancy of God's family, over having cry room closets where we isolate the children as if they are a hindrance to good worship.

Education programs, fun activities, Bible camps, etc., are all great ideas, and I would encourage the creation of things like that for kids in every parish, but worship is something that manifests the one body of Christ, which is why I am opposed to "Children's Liturgies," "Teen Liturgies," "Polka Liturgies," "Senior Citizen Liturgies," and whatever other kind of worship service that a modern liturgist can devise.
[/quote]
I didn't know that about the small parishes, but kinda makes sense. As for chaos, I think what you're describing sounds nice, since you're speaking of the children going around and seeing the icons and learning through that.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='15 March 2010 - 02:39 AM' timestamp='1268620751' post='2073269']
I don't see the need for kid-themed stuff at Church, we go there to be with Jesus as members of the Body of Christ, not to socialize or be entertained. If your child fusses you stand in the back of the Church til they quiet down. I spend many a year listening to Fathers' homily thru the glass doors. Kids participate at Mass when they learn to sing, kneel, stand and go to Communion when they become of age, sing in the choir etc, and serve the Church.
The Church should offer a wider variety of activities for young people outside of Sunday Mass, but not as an alternative activity.
[/quote]
I had to take my son out of Mass yesterday for a tantrum the first time. Thankfully it didn't last long, as he wanted to go back in. After Mass, the priest remarked that he's never heard my son raise his voice before, but he joked about it and didn't make me feel bad at all. It's nice. I'm always saddened when I hear of, or experience, parents being scolded or whatnot because of a crying child. I suppose I'm lucky that that's only happened to me once, when my son was happily cooing to, er, test the acoustics at the Cathedral.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='14 March 2010 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1268630082' post='2073360']
My dear friend is a mother of three, two young girls and one about to arrive. She's an Episcopalian convert, and has been driven to tears more than once by the horrible things people have said to her during and after Mass when her children cry. The priest has been similarly cold to her, and finally, when one parishioner suggested she might not come again until the children were older, she left.

. . .
[/quote]
That is terrible, and the actions of the people in that parish are clearly contrary charity.

After all Jesus did not say: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven, [i]but only if they are quiet[/i]."

Children are a blessing from the Lord.

[Ziggamafu]

My points are these:

1. Regardless of whether or not liturgies for children are good ideas, if a parish has one and the priest welcomes and encourages all the little ones to go, the kids that excitedly do as Father suggests should not be rejected.

2. Granting that children in the Latin rite cannot receive the Eucharist (and granting that the Mass is adult-oriented), efforts should be made to make sure that there is at least an atmosphere/ambiance, if not materials, conducive to a child's frame of mind. Have you ever had to abstain from the Eucharist during Mass? Doesn't that feel awful? Well at least you are an adult; at least you can reflect on the deeper theology involved, make a spiritual communion, etc. A little child is a little child. Old enough to feel left out and young enough not to be able to rationalize why. I'm not saying that every Mass must cater to the mind of a child, but surely something could be done to make Mass less boring to children. Unlike adults, they can't understand the info in tracts about how to get excited at Mass - or if they understand it, they can't apply it for an hour and a half of mostly sitting still and listening to big words. IF Mass was typically more like the earlier description of a particular Eastern Mass, it might be different. But seriously, think about it: from a small child's perspective, they are only going to Mass to visit Jesus and watch Mommy and Daddy interact with a bunch of other people for over an hour. Kids are messy and the typical Mass is not messy enough for them. It is neat and polished and tidy, full of prim and proper old people who use big words, sit still, and try to be as quiet as possible when the man in robes talks for what seems like days. Slow, sad-sounding lullabies are sung amidst all of this. Worst of all, the children don't even get to receive the Eucharist they came to see in the first place!

3. Parishes should ensure there are adequate facilities for small children. Adults get to have coffee in a social hall after Mass. Why can't kids have juice in a playroom?

4. Look at all of the grown-up magazines, pamphlets, and other various materials that litter the tables and shelves of the narthex. Where is the equal attention to kid-stuff?

5. Parishes should offer more activities and ministries for children outside of Mass and an absurdly expensive preschool.


...say what you will and stick your head in the sand if you want (I'm being general, not speaking to someone here), but Protestant children are excited to go to their congregational services and Catholic children typically dread going to real church.Why? Because in Protestant circles, children are the center of attention and often the center of the budget (even in the "grown-up service" har,har,har).

We are talking about children. You can't just say "grow up and appreciate the theological excitement of Catholicism". They are not grown-ups. That's the point.

[Apotheoun]

The only thing I am opposed to is the idea of altering the liturgy for "groups" among the faithful in order to make them feel better about themselves, because that is not the point of the liturgy. That said, I support doing things outside of the liturgy, e.g., providing age appropriate educational materials about the nature of the liturgy, and about the particular customs in regard to the reception of communion within a given [i]sui juris[/i] Church, etc., because these things help to form a person in the faith. Moreover, educational and recreational programs for children - again outside of the liturgical setting - should be created for those families that would like to make use of them. The Church would not be doing anything new or shocking by creating programs for children, because the creation of the parochial school system in the 19th and 20th centuries was done in order to ensure that newer generations of Catholics were well educated in the faith, while also giving them a sense of belonging to the Church as valued members.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Apotheoun