I Feel Defeated

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='14 March 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1268602724' post='2073116']
. . .

I think you are correct about the ideal of Mass being celebrated as a family. That doesn't mean a parish shouldn't do everything it can to facilitate the needs of the very young.

. . .
[/quote]
I agree. Programs should be created - outside of the liturgy - in order to help kids make friends within the parish, grow in their faith, and even just have fun, but I am opposed to the creation of special parallel liturgies for children (or for any other "group" for that matter).

Children should be with their parents (and extended family) during the liturgy.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Apotheoun

[KeenanParkerII]

[quote]The problem is that we've become very involved with our current parish. We do quite a bit of volunteer work in a variety of programs.

Your description of the church you visited sounds beautiful to me. Unfortunately, the parishes around me are all of the "polished" variety. And anyway, my children are pretty well behaved in Mass (although when they are not, it would arguably be scandalous to remain in the sanctuary with them; you can cut the tension when people are annoyed or distracted). I could try an Eastern rite parish, but I would feel a bit weird to be regularly using another rite's parish without actually joining that rite. Also, I believe that the East allows the little children to receive their Eucharistic Lord. Keep in mind that West does not. I think it would be even more difficult than the Sunday school fiasco for my daughter to see other children her age receiving the Eucharist while she cannot! [/quote]

Ah yes, I understand. The differences in rights are still in some ways substantial. Ideally, people shouldn't have to uproot and Parish-shop to find one that fulfills the needs of the family as a whole.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='14 March 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1268602795' post='2073119']
I think I'm in the right Rite after all.
[/quote]
Liturgy is life, and life is a little bit messy.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='14 March 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1268602724' post='2073116']
Also, I believe that the East allows the little children to receive their Eucharistic Lord.
[/quote]
Correct.

[Apotheoun]

I posted this before, but I just find it so beautiful that I thought I would post it here too:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l09khpR4XVk[/media]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 March 2010 - 08:51 AM' timestamp='1268603511' post='2073127']
I agree. Programs should be created - outside of the liturgy - in order to help kids make friends within the parish, grow in their faith, and even just have fun, but I am opposed to the creation of special parallel liturgies for children (or for any other "group" for that matter).

Children should be with their parents (and extended family) during the liturgy.
[/quote]


I agree with this as well. At the Latin Mass we don't have any special liturgy and children sit with their parents, but I do think there needs to be som effort to help new families incorporate a bit better. We have just started tea and coffee after Sunday Mass and I have always hated this kind of socializing but I can see that a lot of people, especially new ones, need the time to meet up with others and to get to know each other, so I help serve it.
But when there is already an existing children's program in place, to deny some access to it is very hard. I don't know the answer because we don't do this, but there must be a way...

[BG45]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 March 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1268603856' post='2073134']
I agree with this as well. At the Latin Mass we don't have any special liturgy and children sit with their parents, but I do think there needs to be som effort to help new families incorporate a bit better. We have just started tea and coffee after Sunday Mass and I have always hated this kind of socializing but I can see that a lot of people, especially new ones, need the time to meet up with others and to get to know each other, so I help serve it.
But when there is already an existing children's program in place, to deny some access to it is very hard. I don't know the answer because we don't do this, but there must be a way...
[/quote]

As a general rule I used to despise little meet and greet things too, back when I was a Protestant. Now though, I'm not sure how I'd feel about them. I went through the RCIA process, but none of the people from that class or their families go to the Mass I go to. I've come to know people in my seating area's names by listening to them gossip to each other. So I'm not sure if having these sorts of things (coffee and small pastries, etc.) weekly would help new families or not in adjusting.

[brightsadness]

[quote name='apparently' date='14 March 2010 - 07:00 AM' timestamp='1268575238' post='2072867']
sorry
this is the duty and right of the mother and father alone to take care of
[/quote]

Hello. Children are baptized into the faith community. We promise to support the parents and Godparents. What exactly do you think that means?

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1268588709' post='2072942']
I am all for programs for children (e.g., outdoor activities, social events, educational programs, etc.), but I am not in favor of separate liturgical services for kids. Families should worship together.
[/quote]


Yes I agree with this, the idea of removing kids from the church to a different room seems to undermine the sense of family in the worship. I beleive the children should be taught to behave in mass, and they should remain with their family to learn that as a family they worship God together.
I was visiting family in New Jersey, and on sunday we went to a St Jude catholic Church out of Netcong N.J. My son ed was three years old at the time and was always real good in mass, even when a baby, he was a big fat kid and would just sit there looking around or sleep. This sunday as we were nearing the readings he started crying horribly loud and several old people shot disapproving glances at us, embarrassed, I stood and picked him up and was walking out the door, my wife was sitting there with our little girl, the priest seen this and stopped on the altar and said "Do not leave, Jesus always said let the children come unto me, and we as a catholic family are all used to a child crying, sit down and celebrate with us" I was surprised and felt like hugging him, baby ed stopped crying immediately and looked around at everybody and never uttered a peep through the rest of mass. This priest made us feel welcomed and loved in a few words. After we left he started wailing again, it turned out he had double ear infections and we spent the next five hours in the E.R. I never have been upset at children making noise in mass, that had stuck with me and whenever I hear an unruly child during mass I get this feeling that Jesus must be smiling at the freedom of children.

ed

[Rebecca2009]

Ziggamafu,
Is your Priest receptive to people coming to him with concerns such as yours? Maybe no one has ever had a complaint before about how things are handled at your parish. In my limited experience, if the parish is of any size there are people who oversee certain things and the Priest might not be aware of how each thing is being run.

I am spoiled I guess...I go to Mass by myself, but I went through the years of being frustrated, trying to go to church but always having to leave the service because of crying/fussing/hungry little ones. I often wondered why I bothered to go. The church I go to does have a cry room, with a speaker so they can still hear the Mass. They walk out briefly to receive Communion and they are often the first ones the Priest goes to which I think is great.
Having been part of Protestant churches for the past 25 or so years, I think it is great that the families stay together throughout the Mass. I can understand your concern with the lack of things for children, though. you bring up much food for thought. I am sorry for what happened with your daughter....wherever there are people involved, there will be mistakes made, blind spots that need to be brought to light. My first experience with RCIA was awful. If I'd been a younger believer, it probably would have turned me off from the Catholic Church completely. I hope you can find some kind of resolution for your family's situation. Hang in there.

[Rebecca2009]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='14 March 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1268613384' post='2073188']
Yes I agree with this, the idea of removing kids from the church to a different room seems to undermine the sense of family in the worship. I beleive the children should be taught to behave in mass, and they should remain with their family to learn that as a family they worship God together.
I was visiting family in New Jersey, and on sunday we went to a St Jude catholic Church out of Netcong N.J. My son ed was three years old at the time and was always real good in mass, even when a baby, he was a big fat kid and would just sit there looking around or sleep. This sunday as we were nearing the readings he started crying horribly loud and several old people shot disapproving glances at us, embarrassed, I stood and picked him up and was walking out the door, my wife was sitting there with our little girl, the priest seen this and stopped on the altar and said "Do not leave, Jesus always said let the children come unto me, and we as a catholic family are all used to a child crying, sit down and celebrate with us" I was surprised and felt like hugging him, baby ed stopped crying immediately and looked around at everybody and never uttered a peep through the rest of mass. This priest made us feel welcomed and loved in a few words. After we left he started wailing again, it turned out he had double ear infections and we spent the next five hours in the E.R. I never have been upset at children making noise in mass, that had stuck with me and whenever I hear an unruly child during mass I get this feeling that Jesus must be smiling at the freedom of children.

ed
[/quote]


:clap:That is so Great to hear!!! God bless that Priest!!! Plus I love it that he got the message across to the people who were glaring at you....grrrr that really gets me mad when that happens.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Rebecca2009

[Apotheoun]

I have noticed that the larger a parish is the more bureaucratic it becomes. Perhaps that is why I love small parishes, i.e., parishes were you can actually get to know people.

[Brother Adam]

It seems almost everyone is already of the same mind on this thread and it has grown to three pages in a very short amount of time. As a full time DRE in a Catholic parish the last three years I believe what is offered at the Protestant churches is mostly novelty. Yes, its clean, well lit, free, and fun, but at the loss of a truly grounding experience in the Sacraments and truth. The Mass is always the same but it is centered in the Eucharistic Lord and that is what keeps people there. With the kids programs you describe - It creates an atmosphere of entertainment and entitlement. I know, I spent a great deal of time in that atmosphere as a Baptist. It ultimately never satisfies the hunger people have for the Lord. It can't. Those ecclesial communities also have a ton of money that Catholic parishes do not. Lay salaries are pathetic already and the parish finance council gets together every year and has to figure out how to make income and expenses equal 0. It doesn't happen through the tithe because we don't give anymore because we are so unhappy with the direction the Church has taken - so they have two choices - eliminate programs or charge for them. Often the choice is to charge for them.

I dropped our VBS because they wanted to charge $20.00 a student to raise the $1,000 required to buy the most basic materials for a home grown program. I said the money needs to come from the parish, not fees. They would not relent so I canceled it altogether. It is very difficult for Catholic leaders to make decisions like that when money is involved. Pray for us.

Since the Second Vatican Council we have so many competing ideologies and philosophies and it has hurt the Church. The liberalism and lack of preaching hard truth from the pulpit has dramatically affected the Church and it is going to take a long time to recover. Catechesis has become feeling based with a few good Bible stories thrown in for good measure - not only with kids, but with adults as well. It is going to take time to sort out, but that is happening in many places, and there are great Catholic parishes with great programs. They aren't flashy, but they get the job done. Every parish should have a place for children. It doesn't need to be an entire wing, with 10 different choices (as we Americans want), but it should be a good educational program. Other programs for family, teens, adults, and children should be offered too on a more social basis, but be ready to volunteer for them. One paid staff members can only do so much. In our line of work everyone likes to complain about how much more we should offer, but no one wants to help or actually do the work.

I also agree, children's liturgies are terrible ideas. The Mass is Christ's Mass. Children should be taught toward the awe and wonder of the Mass. They would also be more receptive to it if we had not torn out all of the images and reordered the churches. The sense of transcendence and mystery is absent and that provokes boredom.

Regarding children in Mass, Deacon Dr. Mark Miravalle once said at a Mass I was at "children crying at Mass are not a distraction. They are a sign God is still blessing us."

Amen good doctor. Amen.

[add]

[quote name='brightsadness' date='14 March 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1268613312' post='2073187']
Hello. Children are baptized into the faith community. We promise to support the parents and Godparents. What exactly do you think that means?
[/quote]

Edited March 15, 2010 by apparently

[add]

[quote name='brightsadness' date='14 March 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1268613312' post='2073187']
Hello. Children are baptized into the faith community. We promise to support the parents and Godparents. What exactly do you think that means?
[/quote]



The fundamental right and duty involved in Catholic Education is that of the parents: Canon 793§1 states: "[i]Parents, and those who take their place, have both the obligation and the right to educate their children. Catholic parents have also the duty and the right to choose those means and institutes which, in their local circumstances, can best promote the catholic education of their children[/i]".

Among the means to achieving this goal are schools:

Canon 796 §1states: "[i]Among the means of advancing education, Christ's faithful are to consider schools as of great importance, since they are the principal means of helping parents to fulfil their role in education[/i]".

But schools are not to be seen as substitutes for parents. Rather, as canon 796 §2 says, "[i]There must be the closest cooperation between parents and the teachers to whom they entrust their children to be educated. In fulfilling their task, teachers are to collaborate closely with the parents and willingly listen to them[/i]".


now that my children have lift the nest, i miss our short (special) time togetherand thank God every day for my great blessing's