I Feel Defeated

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='14 March 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1268594659' post='2073003']
But, is what he's getting at really about celebrating the liturgy together..? I thought it was about "extracurricular" programs so to speak.
[/quote]
I thought he was referring to children's [i]Liturgy of the Word[/i], which is a practice that evinces a complete misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of the proclamation of scripture during the liturgical synaxis.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='14 March 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1268594659' post='2073003']
I thought it was about "extracurricular" programs so to speak.
[/quote]
Group activities organized for the children of the parish are a great idea.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Apotheoun

[add]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1268595326' post='2073010']
Group activities organized for the children of the parish are a great idea.
[/quote]

family

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='apparently' date='14 March 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1268596238' post='2073018']
family
[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='apparently' date='14 March 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1268596238' post='2073018']
family
[/quote]
I did not think that I needed to mention family activities, but perhaps that is because my parents liked to do things with me and my siblings when I was a kid. Nevertheless, the parish is also a family, and so I see no reason why there cannot be group activities for the children of the parish where they get together and have fun.

[KeenanParkerII]

It's kind of like sacramentals. Sure, you can pray with any beads, but wouldn't you rather have Catholic prayer beads? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img] Maybe I want to watch some television, but it would be nice to watch Catholic television. Maybe I want my kid to go to daycare, wouldn't it be nice to have Catholic daycare. On the same note, this past Friday I thought it was really nice to recieve so much Catholic mail: missals, a rosary, a book, some pamphlets. It encourages us and enforces a sense of community.

Edited March 14, 2010 by KeenanParkerII

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1268595326' post='2073010']
Group activities organized for the children of the parish are a great idea.
[/quote]

I am basically referring to any parish-based ministries that facilitate a young child's sense of need, acceptance, and participation. When a child walks into most Protestant buildings, the child is immediately aware of (and sometimes in awe of) a myriad of opportunities and activities that SCREAM, "You are important to us, you are welcome, we love you, and we include you - no strings attached!" Other posts have mentioned examples these various activities.

At Mass, children get the idea that Church is [i]mostly [/i]for grown-ups; sure I have educated my pre-schooler to the best of my ability, but even for her, although she understands that [i]everyone [/i]goes to Mass to receive Jesus and [i]everyone [/i]gives themselves to Jesus, the [i]way [/i]this takes place revolves around the adults. To make matters worse, she gets to look at her Eucharistic Jesus, but she can't touch or receive Him. And then all the grown-ups file out for grown-up coffee and grown-up conversations (if they even stay at all).

I am proud that my little four year old actually understands and appreciates her "visits to Jesus", but she's gotta feel a little left out. And I know she was hurt and confused when she was kicked out of Sunday-school after the priest had told her and all the other parish children to go.

And what of the lack of something as simple as a nursery? Some parishes provide a "cry room" but none that I have seen amount to anything close to a facility that says "we care" per the social and financial standards that America is blessed to have. Usually, if there is any space allotted at all, it is a dark, box-like room that says, "Ew. You are annoying us. To the shadows with you!"

So what happens when your child is fussy? Perhaps she missed her nap time. Perhaps she is a bit sick, though not so sick that you feel warrant to skip Mass. Perhaps anything. The point is you have a fussy child and it would be rude to stay in the sanctuary. In most Protestant buildings, there would be luxurious mini-estates with full-service fine dining and Bible themed mascots handing out children activities based on the day's sermon. Perhaps a complimentary humpback whale. Anything to help the child ease out of fussiness and relieve a parent's sky-rocketing stress level.

What do you get at most Catholic churches? Empty hallways and adult-themed decorations. Maybe a pamphlet on how to cope with aging or fliers that advertise local retirement communities (if you're lucky, they might at least have colorful pictures to distract your screaming kid). That's it.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Ziggamafu

[truthfinder]

I am very sorry this has been your experience. In my parish there are no fees and the children's liturgy is completely dependent on volunteers. My parish consists mostly of older people (sometimes the priest jokes that anyone under 50 can go to children's liturgy,) and we are blest if more than one child attends at the morning Mass. It is an old church, so no cry room, but crying babies and children don't really bother the parishoners so much.
Maybe it's just the mentality that is present in the parish. I'll keep you and your parish in my prayers so that it is more welcoming and accepting of children. (Who wants to have children when their parish doesn't want them?)

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='apparently' date='14 March 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1268575238' post='2072867']
sorry
this is the duty and right of the mother and father [s]alone[/s] to take care of
[/quote]
primarily

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1268588709' post='2072942']
I am all for programs for children (e.g., outdoor activities, social events, educational programs, etc.), but I am not in favor of separate liturgical services for kids. Families should worship together.
[/quote]

These.

[Apotheoun]

I am not for establishing "Children's Liturgies," because the liturgy is not about creating separate groups within the parish, nor is it about meeting social "needs."

Now, part of the problem with the Church today is that many parishes, for a variety of reasons, are simply too large. A parish - according to tradition - should have ONE Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, and not several, because the one Eucharist signifies the unity of the one Body of Christ in that geographic location. In fact, in the ancient Church it was forbidden to celebrate the Eucharist multiple times on a single altar on the same day. This tradition is still maintained among Eastern Orthodox Christians, who intentionally keep their parishes small. When a parish gets too large, a group of families is sent off to found another Christian temple, which may only be a few blocks or a few miles away, and this "eastern" practice is not unique, because the Roman Catholic Church used to do the same thing, and anyone who walks around in a city like San Francisco can see that this was the case, because Catholic Churches can be found only a few blocks away from each other (although most now are sadly closed in favor of mega-Churches).

Finally, as far as kids screaming is concerned, I do not mind at all when a kid screams at Church, and I honestly would prefer that kids make noise and move around in Church (n.b., in a traditional Eastern parish there are no pews), touching the icons and learning how to make prostrations and venerate icons by seeing their parents and other adults practicing the faith in God's house. I have seen kids cry and make a certain amount of noise in the Orthodox Churches I have visited, and no one seems to mind at all. In fact, that to me IS Church, and I prefer that kind of chaotic activity, which shows the life and vibrancy of God's family, over having cry room closets where we isolate the children as if they are a hindrance to good worship.

Education programs, fun activities, Bible camps, etc., are all great ideas, and I would encourage the creation of things like that for kids in every parish, but worship is something that manifests the one body of Christ, which is why I am opposed to "Children's Liturgies," "Teen Liturgies," "Polka Liturgies," "Senior Citizen Liturgies," and whatever other kind of worship service that a modern liturgist can devise.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Apotheoun

[KeenanParkerII]

[quote]Finally, as far as kids screaming is concerned, I do not mind at all when a kid screams at Church, and I honestly would prefer that kids make noise and move around in Church (n.b., in a traditional Eastern parish there are no pews), touching the icons and learning how to make prostrations and venerate icons by seeing their parents and other adults practicing the faith in God's house. That to me IS Church, and I prefer that kind of chaotic activity, which shows the life and vibrancy of God's family, over having cry room closets where we isolate the children as if they are a hindrance to good worship.[/quote]

It's funny you should say that. I don't want to derail the topic at all, but I am curious if that is typical of the Eastern culture. I visited a Latin Church, St.Edmunds, but it was [b]heavily[/b] influenced by Eastern Christianity. The feel was very different, like the difference between wood and marble, icons and frescoes, bustling community and strict discipline. Anyways, the children there were all over the place, crying, playing, sneaking potato chips, sitting backwards on the kneelers. There were plants on the organ, random candles on the window sills, creaking pews, ramshackle additions to the building, religious brothers bustling about. All in all, it had an amazing feeling to it, yet very different from the polished beauty of St.Pius parish.

Why not try a few different parishes and see if you can find one more suitable to your need Zigg?

[Apotheoun]

Eastern Christian worship is quite beautiful, but it is also quite messy.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='14 March 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1268601254' post='2073102']
It's funny you should say that. I don't want to derail the topic at all, but I am curious if that is typical of the Eastern culture. I visited a Latin Church, St.Edmunds, but it was [b]heavily[/b] influenced by Eastern Christianity. The feel was very different, like the difference between wood and marble, icons and frescoes, bustling community and strict discipline. Anyways, the children there were all over the place, crying, playing, sneaking potato chips, sitting backwards on the kneelers. There were plants on the organ, random candles on the window sills, creaking pews, ramshackle additions to the building, religious brothers bustling about. All in all, it had an amazing feeling to it, yet very different from the polished beauty of St.Pius parish.

Why not try a few different parishes and see if you can find one more suitable to your need Zigg?
[/quote]

The problem is that we've become very involved with our current parish. We do quite a bit of volunteer work in a variety of programs.

Your description of the church you visited sounds beautiful to me. Unfortunately, the parishes around me are all of the "polished" variety. And anyway, my children are pretty well behaved in Mass (although when they are not, it would arguably be scandalous to remain in the sanctuary with them; you can cut the tension when people are annoyed or distracted). I could try an Eastern rite parish, but I would feel a bit weird to be regularly using another rite's parish without actually joining that rite. Also, I believe that the East allows the little children to receive their Eucharistic Lord. Keep in mind that West does not. I think it would be even more difficult than the Sunday school fiasco for my daughter to see other children her age receiving the Eucharist while she cannot!

Apo, I think you have gathered how much I respect and envy some aspects of Eastern culture (to say nothing of Eastern theology). There are a lot of areas in which I think the East is better than the West. I have that fundamental contention regarding the developmental awareness of doctrine, but that's about it. I think you are correct about the ideal of Mass being celebrated as a family. That doesn't mean a parish shouldn't do everything it can to facilitate the needs of the very young.

[b]Little children should have a plethora of free opportunities to [i][u]socially bond[/u] in their [i]parish[/i]-family and [u]communally learn[/u] and practice their faith[/i] in exciting, age-appropriate ways.[/b] You don't have to come up with replacement-liturgies in order to do that (although if you do have a Liturgy of the Word for children, you best mean it when, during Mass, you welcome ALL the little children get up and go to it). The social-sphere of childhood faith-development and facilitation of parent/child-related needs is what I see being horribly neglected in Catholic parishes of my area. The Protestants are putting us to shame.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 March 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1268601629' post='2073105']
Eastern Christian worship is quite beautiful, [b]but it is also quite messy.[/b]
[/quote]
I think I'm in the right Rite after all.

[AccountDeleted]

There are good parishes and there are bad ones and it is just shame that some of them make new people feel unwelcome. It is one thing to be raised in a large Catholic family and to get everything you need there, but some of us come from non-Catholic families and we haven't had the benefit of good Catholic parents to instruct us. I think that the Church needs to allow for these kinds of people as well, in providing ways for people to feel welcome and included, especially for children when their parents are new to the faith and just learning themselves. Charity is never wasted.