I Feel Defeated

[homeschoolmom]

<takes off moderator hat and puts on regular poster who is trying to read this thread hat>

Several posters are getting way off topic here. Would you mind taking the descussion that is rather off-topic to PMs, please? Or start another thread?

<puts mod hat back on>

Edited March 18, 2010 by homeschoolmom

[Slappo]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='18 March 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1268952444' post='2075377']
<takes off moderator hat and puts on regular poster who is trying to read this thread hat>

Several posters are getting way off topic here. Would you mind taking the descussion that is rather off-topic to PMs, please? Or start another thread?

<puts mod hat back on>
[/quote]


Honestly I think the role of parents in the education of their children is very pertinent to the topic of parish education programs for children.

How much of a role parish education programs should have in the life of a child is closely related to the responsibility of the parents to educate their children. Because it also brings up questions like are parish education programs ways of parents blowing off their responsibilities, or are they a valid supplement? Are parishes responsible for the education of children or is it the sole responsibility of the parents (which is IMO what apparently and I are discussing)


Edit: Oh, and quadritto on dead people being the sole educators. Edit again: I had to edit the sarcasm for charity...

Seriously apparently, that makes absolutely no sense that dead parents can remain the sole educators of their children. That is definitely against Church traditions and teachings, and I honestly wonder if it goes against a dogma or doctrine of the Church.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Slappo

[add]

[quote name='Slappo' date='18 March 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1268953498' post='2075382']
Honestly I think the role of parents in the education of their children is very pertinent to the topic of parish education programs for children.

How much of a role parish education programs should have in the life of a child is closely related to the responsibility of the parents to educate their children. Because it also brings up questions like are parish education programs ways of parents blowing off their responsibilities, or are they a valid supplement? Are parishes responsible for the education of children or is it the sole responsibility of the parents (which is IMO what apparently and I are discussing)


Edit: Oh, and quadritto on dead people being the sole educators. Edit again: I had to edit the sarcasm for charity...

Seriously apparently, that makes absolutely no sense that dead parents can remain the sole educators of their children. That is definitely against Church traditions and teachings, and I honestly wonder if it goes against a dogma or doctrine of the Church.
[/quote]

by-by

[Slappo]

[quote name='apparently' date='18 March 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1268957848' post='2075417']
by-by
[/quote]

I don't even know what that face is supposed to be about...

You haven't made any suggestions as to why it would be reasonable to believe that deceased parents can remain the sole educators of a child.


Also, I'm assuming by-by means bye-bye and that you won't be posting again... but that's just a guess.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Slappo' date='18 March 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1268953498' post='2075382']Seriously apparently, that makes absolutely no sense that dead parents can remain the sole educators of their children. That is definitely against Church traditions and teachings, and I honestly wonder if it goes against a dogma or doctrine of the Church.
[/quote]

just interjecting for a second. While I agree with him that parents should be the primary educators of children, and disagree with him about dead parents being the only educators (if that is indeed what he is proposing), I think we need to be very careful about accusing someone of heresy without reason. I think if any one of us happens to wonder about whether something is heretical or not, then we should either keep it to ourselves or research until we find the answer. Just because something sounds stupid doesn't mean its heretical. 1+1=3 is stupid (as far as we know now) but its not a heresy.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='18 March 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1268941030' post='2075270']
Dude, that just really stinks. What the heck? These are kids, not university courses. Whoever runs that group needs to give their head a shake. Talk to the pastor and explain the situation! Maybe he'll do it for them!
[/quote]

I already talked with the pastor. He basically said that it was in the hands of the DRE and that was her system.

I want to emphasize that the bigger issue - scandal, really - concerning that particular part of my rant is that ALL the children were publicly welcomed, encouraged, and told to come up for a blessing during Mass and were sent off. In other words, a lie occurs within the sanctuary and the children who are kicked out after following Father's command are left confused and hurt. YOU DON'T REJECT KIDS FROM CHURCH FUNCTIONS. You may reject them from school functions, from fee-related functions, from any kind of strictly "institutional" functions, but not Church functions; the Church is a family and all should be welcome, especially children.

[Apotheoun]

I think I would go to a different parish.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 March 2010 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1268923052' post='2075098']
Sadly, the Church has succumbed to a bureaucratic mentality.
[/quote]
So true.

The heart of Zigga's concerns is the lack of effort by parishes to appeal (welcome) the little ones. Playgrounds are appealing to kids. Our parish has a playground. I should say "had" a playground. It had some old equipment, so the parish council decided to upgrade it. Money was put aside 2 or so years ago to give the playground a serious upgrade. When they tore out the old equipment nearly 2 years ago, an empty fenced lot is all that remained. The kids would no longer have a place to play after mass as they had done time and again until the new equipment was installed.

What has been done since the equipment was torn out almost 2 years ago? A concrete slab has been poured. That's it. I don't know who knew who to get the bid to build the playground, but this has been tied up for too long. There seems to be no chief in the tribe to step forward and demand the project be finished. There has been no explanation to parishioners (Those are the people who paid for it.) as to why the project has not been completed. Frustrating, especially to see something missing the kids enjoyed so much.

And for 2 years, my wife and I served as head of the parish faith formation commission. Don't get me started on the inside politics on that one. I served my required 2 years and left.

[Slappo]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='18 March 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1268979552' post='2075571']
just interjecting for a second. While I agree with him that parents should be the primary educators of children, and disagree with him about dead parents being the only educators (if that is indeed what he is proposing), I think we need to be very careful about accusing someone of heresy without reason. I think if any one of us happens to wonder about whether something is heretical or not, then we should either keep it to ourselves or research until we find the answer. Just because something sounds stupid doesn't mean its heretical. 1+1=3 is stupid (as far as we know now) but its not a heresy.
[/quote]


Well... I could pull sources where it goes against the traditions and teachings of the Church, and it is true that I honestly wonder if there has been some doctrine on the matter. I have claimed no heresy on his part.

Something that goes against traditions (small t) is not heretical. Also, teachings of the magisterium are not all doctrine/dogma, and therefore to not believe/follow those that are not doctrine/dogma is not heretical.


Edit: Also, accusing someone of heresy when you are sure that what they believe is heretical always has good reason. Admonishing the sinner and instructing the ignorant are both spiritual works of mercy. However, since I haven't claimed anyone said anything heretical....

Edited March 19, 2010 by Slappo

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='19 March 2010 - 08:54 AM' timestamp='1268999689' post='2075596']
I already talked with the pastor. He basically said that it was in the hands of the DRE and that was her system.

I want to emphasize that the bigger issue - scandal, really - concerning that particular part of my rant is that ALL the children were publicly welcomed, encouraged, and told to come up for a blessing during Mass and were sent off. In other words, a lie occurs within the sanctuary and the children who are kicked out after following Father's command are left confused and hurt. YOU DON'T REJECT KIDS FROM CHURCH FUNCTIONS. You may reject them from school functions, from fee-related functions, from any kind of strictly "institutional" functions, but not Church functions; the Church is a family and all should be welcome, especially children.
[/quote]
I would be having a LONG talk with the DRE in front of the pastor, and if I had to would be calling the diocese. If you tell kids to come up then you had better ACCEPT all the kids coming up. What if there had been guests at the parish that weekend with children???

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='19 March 2010 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1269013438' post='2075680']
So true.

The heart of Zigga's concerns is the lack of effort by parishes to appeal (welcome) the little ones. Playgrounds are appealing to kids. Our parish has a playground. I should say "had" a playground. It had some old equipment, so the parish council decided to upgrade it. Money was put aside 2 or so years ago to give the playground a serious upgrade. When they tore out the old equipment nearly 2 years ago, an empty fenced lot is all that remained. The kids would no longer have a place to play after mass as they had done time and again until the new equipment was installed.

What has been done since the equipment was torn out almost 2 years ago? A concrete slab has been poured. That's it. I don't know who knew who to get the bid to build the playground, but this has been tied up for too long. There seems to be no chief in the tribe to step forward and demand the project be finished. There has been no explanation to parishioners (Those are the people who paid for it.) as to why the project has not been completed. Frustrating, especially to see something missing the kids enjoyed so much.

And for 2 years, my wife and I served as head of the parish faith formation commission. Don't get me started on the inside politics on that one. I served my required 2 years and left.
[/quote]


Doesn't it make you want to scream? And we wonder why so many of the kids are growing up disconnected to their faith. Faith-education is essential, but the spirit is crippled when there is nothing within the faith-community to make that education adventurously realized in the social-sphere of a child's mind and life. The needs of the children are not being met by the parish-families that pledged devotion and assistance to them at their baptism. They grow up seeing Protestant congregations lavish attention upon the children, providing facilities, community activities, materials, and an exciting faith-education; children are the Protestant community's financial priority. The properly educated children may hopefully understand what is lacking in these Protestant communities (though a great deal of children tragically will not); yet even they will feel slighted. They cannot help but feel that way, and they have every right to feel that way. If any philosophy is one of autonomous individualism, it is the Protestant philosophy. If any philosophy is of familial solidarity, it is the Catholic philosophy. The irony is scandalous.

[cmotherofpirl]

I would like to point out in fairness, that in the past the church has never offered these services other than CCD, and maybe CYO and until recently most protestant churches did not either. The only difference in the past was that protestant kids had to go Wednesday night as well. This emphasis on children has mainly come from the touchy feely fundamentalist groups.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='19 March 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1269029785' post='2075877']
I would like to point out in fairness, that in the past the church has never offered these services other than CCD, and maybe CYO and until recently most protestant churches did not either. The only difference in the past was that protestant kids had to go Wednesday night as well. This emphasis on children has mainly come from the touchy feely fundamentalist groups.
[/quote]

I disagree. In the Old Days, the community was so Christian that there were abundant celebrations - local festivities, gatherings, and activities - for the children to attend. I do not see it as coincidence that as society was secularized, Christian communities began to fill in the gaps that were being left behind. Particularly in the Old Days of Catholic countries, there would be absolutely no need for any of the stuff that I've advocated in this thread because the community would already be saturated with it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='19 March 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1269031574' post='2075896']
I disagree. In the Old Days, the community was so Christian that there were abundant celebrations - local festivities, gatherings, and activities - for the children to attend. I do not see it as coincidence that as society was secularized, Christian communities began to fill in the gaps that were being left behind. Particularly in the Old Days of Catholic countries, there would be absolutely no need for any of the stuff that I've advocated in this thread because the community would already be saturated with it.
[/quote]
The Church should provide fun activities for kids and for families in general.

That said, I would - if I had children of my own - be very selective about their participation in activities promoted by mainstream society, since secular culture is quite sick at the present time.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='15 March 2010 - 11:52 PM' timestamp='1268711570' post='2073814']
In what sense(s)?
[/quote]
I'd still like a response to this.