I Feel Defeated

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1268770483' post='2074113']
you misunderstand my point, i stated that my children are my soul responsibility to educate. as a a catholic family, in the church, by example and practice. Of course, we could not do it alone, we had lets of help from the priest and laypeople at our parish.

On a side note, i attended catholic school as a youngster, the school at that time was run by Sisters, brothers and and ordained priest. not once did i every hear or was it suggested the the parents of my classmates were not educated enough or not educated in the faith.
i get the impression from other posters that this would or should be done. i have a very high opinion of my fellow parishioners and the idea that if i were to leave them (my children) alone, unattended at some church function where my parental values and/or ability is going to be diminished, is disturbing
as a practicing Catholic, my children, along with my wife and me, would and did participate in the weekly mass and the sacraments.


as for homeschool, i never went to college nor did my wife, that did not invalidate our ability to provide a good catholic education. my mother suggested or insisted we use a Catholic homeschool curriculum. i listened, all three of my children went on to college and graduated with honors. two of them from Franciscan University.

just saying
[/quote]
I get the impression that you've set up a false dichotomy. Nobody is saying that parents need not be involved. All parents have a massive responsibility to their children. The thing is that they're not alone, nor should they be. Their parish community should have a role. So should the school, if it's feasible, as well as godparents, confirmation sponsors, neighbours..... That's not diminishing the parental role. It's giving your children everything you possibly can. Whatever is in your ability to provide. Sometimes circumstances preclude one or more of those avenues I mentioned above- sometimes partially, sometimes completely. For instance, my godparents live six hours away from me and I see them maybe once a year, if that.
Letting these other sources of education help and support the parental role *does not* diminish it. In fact I'd suggest that part of the parental role is to make those sources available.

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 March 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1268770842' post='2074116']
I get the impression that you've set up a false dichotomy. Nobody is saying that parents need not be involved. All parents have a massive responsibility to their children. The thing is that they're not alone, nor should they be. Their parish community should have a role. So should the school, if it's feasible, as well as godparents, confirmation sponsors, neighbours..... That's not diminishing the parental role. It's giving your children everything you possibly can. Whatever is in your ability to provide. Sometimes circumstances preclude one or more of those avenues I mentioned above- sometimes partially, sometimes completely. For instance, my godparents live six hours away from me and I see them maybe once a year, if that.
Letting these other sources of education help and support the parental role *does not* diminish it. In fact I'd suggest that part of the parental role is to make those sources available.
[/quote]

my bad

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1268772303' post='2074123']
my bad
[/quote]
That's an unexpected conclusion.

[Slappo]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1268770483' post='2074113']
you misunderstand my point, i stated that [b]my children are my [s]soul[/s]sole responsibility to educate[/b]. as a a catholic family, in the church, by example and practice. Of course, we could not do it alone, we had lets of help from the priest and laypeople at our parish.
[/quote]

The bolded is not true. It's that simple.

If you were the only person responsible there would be no need for confirmation classes, first communion classes, marriage prep, or any instruction whatsoever aside from what is given in the home.

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1268770483' post='2074113']
On a side note, i attended catholic school as a youngster, the school at that time was run by Sisters, brothers and and ordained priest. not once did i every hear or was it suggested the the parents of my classmates were not educated enough or not educated in the faith.
i get the impression from other posters that this would or should be done. i have a very high opinion of my fellow parishioners and the idea that if i were to leave them (my children) alone, unattended at some church function where my parental values and/or ability is going to be diminished, is disturbing
as a practicing Catholic, my children, along with my wife and me, would and did participate in the weekly mass and the sacraments.



as for homeschool, i never went to college nor did my wife, that did not invalidate our ability to provide a good catholic education. my mother suggested or insisted we use a Catholic homeschool curriculum. i listened, all three of my children went on to college and graduated with honors. two of them from Franciscan University.

just saying
[/quote]

That is great that you and your wife were able to provide a good Catholic education. One example of parents who did not go to college that were able to home school does not set the rule of thumb that all parents have the intellectual ability to provide a proper education. It would be horrible logic to assume such is true.


Edit: I graduated from Franciscan with honors and I had a high school freshmen level education going in. I dropped out my sophomore year and got my GED. My parents didn't educate me. A lot of it depends on the intellectual capacity of the children as well. Just FYI.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Slappo

[praxedes]

Prayers.

Pax,
Praxedes

[Ziggamafu]

Oh goodness. I actually feel I have to defend my parenting a bit. There have been more than a couple of posts that seem to suggest I am looking for my parish to raise my kids.

Here are some of the things my wife and I do with our kids:

1) We venerate the icons and crucifix at our family shrine-area (the most prominent wall) as a family AT LEAST once a day; the most honored (and largest icons) are of the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart.
2) We say a traditional blessing as a family before every meal.
3) We have a holy water font that is always full and always used as we go in and out of the house.
4) We have a couple of extra icons in the kids' room, though they are not regularly given specific veneration.
5) I strive to regularly utilize family activities and recipes specific to the liturgical year, mostly drawing from "Catholic Traditions in the Home and Classroom: 365 Days to Celebrate a Catholic Year" by Ann Ball, but also drawing a few ideas from "The Bad Catholic's Guide" and "Catholic Customs and Traditions".
6) We say an Our Father and a Hail Mary (actually, we sing them) with our children before bed every night - no exceptions.
7) When the kids are tucked in, my wife and I sing a litany of our family patrons (all of them; first name, middle name, family-last-name, baptism-day patron, birthday-patrons, and guardian angels) as we walk out the door.
8) We have nightly family devotions, which include a bible story and child-appropriate meditation.
9) My children know to make the sign of the cross at the sound of an emergency vehicle and say hi to Jesus as we pass any parish.

...there are other things I'm sure I'm forgetting, but we are a very Catholic family. We are converts, after all, and the rest of the family on both sides is moderately to severely anti-Catholic. Persecution begets devotion.

That said, Catholicism, unlike Protestantism, does not take kindly to autonomous individualism. Although the family is the domestic church, it is not a totally autonomous unit meant to exist independently from the community of the Church. Yet there are so few activities and functions in most parishes geared toward young children that one would indeed get that impression. It is scandalously ironic that the Protestant churches excel in this area! Parishes ought to make it a priority to provide for the communal bonding of its littlest parishioners and the social sphere of their faith-education.

For instance, the local Presbyterian community has an Easter-egg hunt this Saturday that is followed by a puppet show and activities that teach the good news of the resurrection. Awesome. My parish doesn't even have a nursery. Neither do any of the parishes close by. Etc. In fact, just insert all of my previous posts into this paragraph. That should do it. Where are all of the offerings for the children? There are quite a few kids at the parish.

My wife and I already volunteer quite a bit of time and talent to our parish (or we did until Rosie was kicked out of Sunday school the third time and the priest didn't offer a satisfactory resolution; we've gone parish-hopping since, though we are arranging a final attempt at fixing the problem by an appointment with the DRE). We are/were active members of three different committees.

As far as Liturgy of the Word for children goes:

1) Where it is offered, it would seem to border on simony to CHARGE FOR IT.
2) Where a child runs off to join the other children, ALL OF WHOM WERE CALLED TO IT BY THE PRIEST, that child should not EVER be rejected for not having "registered in time"

- even if you disagree with LOWC, the above two problems only ADD to a situation you already disagree with. I do not advocate a fancy LOWC as the only means of satisfying the needs of children at a parish, although I don't think I am as opposed to it as some people here are. I do not think LOWC is even needed to fulfill the needs of the kids. I do think nurseries and play-areas are appropriate, if only intended for pre/post-Mass contexts. And I do think there should be as many materials and offerings for the little ones as there are for the elderly. And I do think there needs to be a variety of FREE activities outside of Mass for the social needs of a proper Catholic faith-education and for the sake of childhood bonding with the parish-family.

The Catholic Church is our family. The diocese is our family. The parish is our family. Our household is our family. Catholic is ALL ABOUT FAMILY; the family of God! Family takes care of each other and provides for each other. Family pays special attention to its elderly and its children and those in most need. But among them all, the children are the future. "Bells and whistles" are worthless without love and truth, but bells and whistles are as necessary as any and all traditions. They are good and should be part of budget-considerations. And really, you don't even need to spend money on the kind of improvements that I think are necessary; I think that the real "bells and whistles" - the ones that are important - are quality time, space, activities, and events merely devoted to children. Who says that such things cost money? They only cost volunteered time and volunteered talent (and the willingness to surrender these, with the addition of space, for the sake of the kids). One of the things that we've been told by our parish is that the calendar / schedule is full and so is the building's space; everybody is busy, busy, busy. IOW, the kids are not the biggest priority

...never mind that the Protestant places seem to be able to pull this kind of stuff off just fine, and without all of the red tape and politicking that are involved with the various committees of a Catholic parish. Whatever.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='16 March 2010 - 04:29 PM' timestamp='1268778593' post='2074235']
Oh goodness. I actually feel I have to defend my parenting a bit.

. . .
[/quote]
There is no reason to do that. As I see it, you are - as a parent - simply looking for help from the Church with making sure that your children understand the faith, and are encouraged to live it.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Apotheoun

[add]

[quote name='Slappo' date='16 March 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1268772957' post='2074135']
Edit: I graduated from Franciscan with honors and I had a high school freshmen level education going in. I dropped out my sophomore year and got my GED. My parents didn't educate me. A lot of it depends on the intellectual capacity of the children as well. Just FYI.
[/quote]


good luck with your children, i honestly wish you well.

Edited March 16, 2010 by apparently

[BG45]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='16 March 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1268778593' post='2074235']
*snip*
[/quote]

+1.

[Ziggamafu]

I am still annoyed that if I want my daughter to enjoy the benefits of childhood faith-celebration amongst her peers and cultivate sense of faith-community I have to go to Protestant activities. Why is there so much politicking between committees and so much red tape to get things "approved" when it comes to setting up similar activities in Catholic parishes?!! ARGHH!!!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='18 March 2010 - 07:23 AM' timestamp='1268918598' post='2075071']
I am still annoyed that if I want my daughter to enjoy the benefits of childhood faith-celebration amongst her peers and cultivate sense of faith-community I have to go to Protestant activities. Why is there so much politicking between committees and so much red tape to get things "approved" when it comes to setting up similar activities in Catholic parishes?!! ARGHH!!!
[/quote]
Sadly, the Church has succumbed to a bureaucratic mentality.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='18 March 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1268918598' post='2075071']
I am still annoyed that if I want my daughter to enjoy the benefits of childhood faith-celebration amongst her peers and cultivate sense of faith-community I have to go to Protestant activities. Why is there so much politicking between committees and so much red tape to get things "approved" when it comes to setting up similar activities in Catholic parishes?!! ARGHH!!!
[/quote]
You sound like you are doing everything wonderfully to raise your kids as active catholics. But as much as one wants the faith celebration stuff for their children, I would be extremely wary of attending non-catholic activities. We have several groups in our area which agressively invite the kids of the community for fun stuff, but they start very early with sola scriptura and pride themselves catholic snatching thru their kids. So they spend a ton of money on their kid programs to get the parents in the door,and love bomb them with instant "community". Its hard to resist your kids when they simply want to be with all their new friends, or try to explain to them that while Mrs D [ the activities director] is a very nice person what she is telling you about A]the Bible, B] Jesus, and C] the church is simply flat out wrong.
Now I'm not in any way saying this could happen to you, but I wanted to point out the trap I have seen sprung over the years.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='18 March 2010 - 09:23 AM' timestamp='1268918598' post='2075071']
I am still annoyed that if I want my daughter to enjoy the benefits of childhood faith-celebration amongst her peers and cultivate sense of faith-community I have to go to Protestant activities. Why is there so much politicking between committees and so much red tape to get things "approved" when it comes to setting up similar activities in Catholic parishes?!! ARGHH!!!
[/quote]
Couldn't you go straight to your priest and say, "We would like to start a ___ club for young children here. We are wondering if you would take a look at the materials and see if it's something you might allow us to do here at the parish."

[Slappo]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1268781913' post='2074274']
good luck with your children, i honestly wish you well.
[/quote]


I honestly think you have misread or misunderstood every post I have made in this thread.

[add]

[quote name='Slappo' date='18 March 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1268927929' post='2075139']
I honestly think you have misread or misunderstood every post I have made in this thread.
[/quote]

i would love to continue this conversation in another 25 years or so.