I Feel Defeated

[Ziggamafu]

Ok, so I'm immensely frustrated with something that seems to be a universal problem in parishes of my area: the lack of ministries for children. Almost every parish charges a fee for materials used in LOTW for children, and some don't allow new children to join "mid-term". Our daughter was rejected on three separate occasions for not having been "registered in time". Hell hath no fury like a parent who has to defend the Church to a preschooler who feels like the Church does not welcome her. Argh.

So we've been looking around and frankly, Catholic ministries for children are pathetic. Go to any Protestant building and you'll find an absurd amount of children programs. The children get involved to an amazing degree and the congregations seem to put them first in every way. Huge nurseries, epic Sunday school programs, etc., and there's never a fee. Like a Christian wonderland of adventure and learning. It makes me pretty angry that Catholic churches, at least in my area, don't grasp the importance of making sure that their kids feel #1.

[add]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='14 March 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1268574931' post='2072866']
Ok, so I'm immensely frustrated with something that seems to be a universal problem in parishes of my area: the lack of ministries for children. Almost every parish charges a fee for materials used in LOTW for children, and some don't allow new children to join "mid-term". Our daughter was rejected on three separate occasions for not having been "registered in time". Hell hath no fury like a parent who has to defend the Church to a preschooler who feels like the Church does not welcome her. Argh.

So we've been looking around and frankly, Catholic ministries for children are pathetic. Go to any Protestant building and you'll find an absurd amount of children programs. The children get involved to an amazing degree and the congregations seem to put them first in every way. Huge nurseries, epic Sunday school programs, etc., and there's never a fee. Like a Christian wonderland of adventure and learning. It makes me pretty angry that Catholic churches, at least in my area, don't grasp the importance of making sure that their kids feel #1.
[/quote]

sorry
this is the duty and right of the mother and father alone to take care of

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='apparently' date='14 March 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1268575238' post='2072867']
sorry
this is the duty and right of the mother and father [b][i]alone [/i][/b]to take care of
[/quote]

I think that is bull. We are the Church. We are not totally autonomous units of individualism. When you go to Mass, you go to a parish family. You are not autonomous units at Church. People are supposed to care for and provide for one another within the walls of the parish building. People are not supposed to feel uncared for or unwelcome. That's why, when the budget allows, you spring for things like comfortable pews, decorations, and donuts. You have nice bathrooms for the adults to retreat to when necessary. Etc. The same level attention does not seem to be given to the needs of either a) fussy children or b) Liturgy of the Word for children.

I educate my children at home and I think I do a pretty good job. But when you go to Mass and every Sunday the priest says [i]"Will all the little children come up? All the little children, come here!"[/i] and dozens of happy little kids stream up, NONE OF THEM SHOULD BE REJECTED. That leaves a pre-schooler with the impression: I am not welcome and I am not wanted here. Charging a fee seems a bit odd as well, though I could understand a suggested donation or something.

I've got to go get ready for Mass.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Ziggamafu

[Saint Therese]

Have you thought about starting some children's ministry yourself? Just a thought.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='14 March 2010 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1268577640' post='2072878']
Have you thought about starting some children's ministry yourself? Just a thought.
[/quote]
That was my thought too. Don't give up. Our church takes whichever kids show up on any given Sunday. Sometimes it is six and sometimes it is a couple of dozen. I suppose if it got more than that, they might want sign ups, but frankly, we are just glad to have any people at all. Maybe you should try a smaller or poorer church.

[Cherie]

While I agree it is the parent's responsibility to bring up their children in the Faith ...

For centuries it was the parish that was the center of society. It is important for children to be familiar with their parish life.

I think the biggest problem today with most parishes in the USA is the crisis of catechesis. Yes, it is certainly a crisis. How many parishes can you go to where the priest will stand up at the pulpit and preach that artificial contraception is mortally sinful? (Yes, the same artificial contraception that [b]80%[/b] of Catholic couples are using, by the way!) How many priests regularly preach about the precepts of the Church? How many Catholics in the pew can tell you the Ten Commandments by heart, let alone the Beatitudes? How many Catholics know anything about the Lives of the Saints? How many Catholics go to Mass and smell incense in a given year? How many Catholics take part in an outdoor Eucharistic Procession on the Feast of Corpus Christi? (How many Catholics even KNOW what the Feast of Corpus Christi is?)

It is true that it is our responsibility to teach our children the Catholic Faith, and we MUST be well-versed in it. But it's a sad time in our history where the people Catholics used to look up to the most, our PRIESTS, are not giving us the support and teaching they are obligated as our shepherds to give. It's terribly sad when the rich, beautiful traditions of our Catholic faith seem to have fallen by the wayside.

Nowadays, parishes have become nothing more than Administrative Business Centers. My mother, who is on her parish's committee, was appalled by the fact that the only subject that was given any time for consideration was "[i]How can we get more funds?"[/i] Not, "How can catechize our parishioners?" or "How can we reach out through evangelization?" or even the simplest, "How can we become holy?" Nope. It was all about the money. And it's sad.

Of course there are wonderful priests and wonderful parishes out there. But I will say, this is one thing Evangelical Protestants definitely have a "one-up" on us. And of course, people say, "Well, a Catholic Church isn't supposed to be all about the warm-fuzzy welcoming, we have the fullness of the truth, and that should be that." But that's a half-truth. Yes, we have the fullness of truth, but that means we should also be the most CHARITABLE of churches. I know from experience that often the Catholic Churches are the ones in which people feel the most turned-away. Many Protestant Churches have people standing at the doors, welcoming people. Even in their larger churches, they RECOGNIZE BY SIGHT when a new person walks in. Wow. I'm not saying we should necessarily have "greeters" in our Catholic Churches. But what I am saying is that if more Catholics were well-versed in the truths of Catholicism, if we knew the Faith better and were taught the Faith from the pulpit, we would be more charitable. I think there is a direct correlation.

[Saint Therese]

I agree that there is an unbelievable lack of catchesis.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='14 March 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1268574931' post='2072866']
Ok, so I'm immensely frustrated with something that seems to be a universal problem in parishes of my area: the lack of ministries for children. Almost every parish charges a fee for materials used in LOTW for children, and some don't allow new children to join "mid-term". Our daughter was rejected on three separate occasions for not having been "registered in time". Hell hath no fury like a parent who has to defend the Church to a preschooler who feels like the Church does not welcome her. Argh.

So we've been looking around and frankly, Catholic ministries for children are pathetic. Go to any Protestant building and you'll find an absurd amount of children programs. The children get involved to an amazing degree and the congregations seem to put them first in every way. Huge nurseries, epic Sunday school programs, etc., and there's never a fee. Like a Christian wonderland of adventure and learning. It makes me pretty angry that Catholic churches, at least in my area, don't grasp the importance of making sure that their kids feel #1.
[/quote]
This was one issue dh and I discovered when we converted. We left a large church with WONDERFUL children's programs from a large nursery wing (with five large, beautiful nurseries segrated by age-- 6 wks to 3 yrs), a fantastic Sunday School and children's worship program, Wednesday evening clubs, VBS, choir, etc, etc, etc... and all of it was very inexpensive ($10 for VBS for example) and everyone was welcome at any time-- always.

Our Catholic parish is very large as well, but just does not have the same kinds of things-- one small nursery for ages 1-3, VBS (some astronomical cost per child), FEP (Faith Enrichment Program) which is neither fun, nor engaging (and sometimes not even very faithful), but which also costs a lot and you can't join mid-year. What we did about it was to start our own children's clubs within our homeschool group at church. It's been a lot of work and it's not nearly the same level of engagement that we used to have, but it's something.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='14 March 2010 - 10:17 AM' timestamp='1268579870' post='2072893']
While I agree it is the parent's responsibility to bring up their children in the Faith ...

For centuries it was the parish that was the center of society. It is important for children to be familiar with their parish life.

I think the biggest problem today with most parishes in the USA is the crisis of catechesis. Yes, it is certainly a crisis. How many parishes can you go to where the priest will stand up at the pulpit and preach that artificial contraception is mortally sinful? (Yes, the same artificial contraception that [b]80%[/b] of Catholic couples are using, by the way!) How many priests regularly preach about the precepts of the Church? How many Catholics in the pew can tell you the Ten Commandments by heart, let alone the Beatitudes? How many Catholics know anything about the Lives of the Saints? How many Catholics go to Mass and smell incense in a given year? How many Catholics take part in an outdoor Eucharistic Procession on the Feast of Corpus Christi? (How many Catholics even KNOW what the Feast of Corpus Christi is?)

It is true that it is our responsibility to teach our children the Catholic Faith, and we MUST be well-versed in it. But it's a sad time in our history where the people Catholics used to look up to the most, our PRIESTS, are not giving us the support and teaching they are obligated as our shepherds to give. It's terribly sad when the rich, beautiful traditions of our Catholic faith seem to have fallen by the wayside.

Nowadays, parishes have become nothing more than Administrative Business Centers. My mother, who is on her parish's committee, was appalled by the fact that the only subject that was given any time for consideration was "[i]How can we get more funds?"[/i] Not, "How can catechize our parishioners?" or "How can we reach out through evangelization?" or even the simplest, "How can we become holy?" Nope. It was all about the money. And it's sad.

Of course there are wonderful priests and wonderful parishes out there. But I will say, this is one thing Evangelical Protestants definitely have a "one-up" on us. And of course, people say, "Well, a Catholic Church isn't supposed to be all about the warm-fuzzy welcoming, we have the fullness of the truth, and that should be that." But that's a half-truth. Yes, we have the fullness of truth, but that means we should also be the most CHARITABLE of churches. I know from experience that often the Catholic Churches are the ones in which people feel the most turned-away. Many Protestant Churches have people standing at the doors, welcoming people. Even in their larger churches, they RECOGNIZE BY SIGHT when a new person walks in. Wow. I'm not saying we should necessarily have "greeters" in our Catholic Churches. But what I am saying is that if more Catholics were well-versed in the truths of Catholicism, if we knew the Faith better and were taught the Faith from the pulpit, we would be more charitable. I think there is a direct correlation.
[/quote]

An outstanding post.

~Sternhauser

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='apparently' date='14 March 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1268575238' post='2072867']
sorry
this is the duty and right of the mother and father alone to take care of
[/quote]
You are wrong.

Let me explain why I say that you're wrong. When we go to mass, we often have a nice choir-- not a lone soloist. We have bible studies for adults-- not lone people just struggling along. There are mission projects that the parish participates in-- clothing drives, Christmas gift drives, etc. We are expected to work together on these things because we are a parish. Together, we are the Body of Christ. I think it is horribly damaging to think that people can successfully dot-to-dot between their children's sacraments (baptism, 1st confession/communion, confirmation) and expect that when they are confirmed, they will be healthy, vital Catholics-- the evidence just does not bare that out. Children need to be involved in parish life early on-- as volunteers, as worshipers, as participants, and as learners. You can't throw a little education at them in second and tenth grades and expect them to stay.

[KeenanParkerII]

[quote]I think that is bull. We are the Church. We are not totally autonomous units of individualism. When you go to Mass, you go to a parish family. You are not autonomous units at Church. People are supposed to care for and provide for one another within the walls of the parish building. People are not supposed to feel uncared for or unwelcome. That's why, when the budget allows, you spring for things like comfortable pews, decorations, and donuts. You have nice bathrooms for the adults to retreat to when necessary. Etc. The same level attention does not seem to be given to the needs of either a) fussy children or b) Liturgy of the Word for children.

I educate my children at home and I think I do a pretty good job. But when you go to Mass and every Sunday the priest says "Will all the little children come up? All the little children, come here!" and dozens of happy little kids stream up, NONE OF THEM SHOULD BE REJECTED. That leaves a pre-schooler with the impression: I am not welcome and I am not wanted here. Charging a fee seems a bit odd as well, though I could understand a suggested donation or something.

I've got to go get ready for Mass. [/quote]

I definitely agree with you man. I think this issue stems from a whole range of anti-social issues within the Catholic Church, from children's ministries through youth groups and into young adult groups. It was very hard coming from what was the social club of a protestant culture to what was essentially a walk in the desert with Jesus. Regardless, these things need to be properly established if the Church actually intends communities to participate fully in Catholic life.

A year from now I'm hoping to get some grass roots projects going at my parish, but first I have to spend a year volunteering and polishing brass.

[Jaime]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='14 March 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1268580729' post='2072898']
You are wrong.

Let me explain why I say that you're wrong. When we go to mass, we often have a nice choir-- not a lone soloist. We have bible studies for adults-- not lone people just struggling along. There are mission projects that the parish participates in-- clothing drives, Christmas gift drives, etc. We are expected to work together on these things because we are a parish. Together, we are the Body of Christ. I think it is horribly damaging to think that people can successfully dot-to-dot between their children's sacraments (baptism, 1st confession/communion, confirmation) and expect that when they are confirmed, they will be healthy, vital Catholics-- the evidence just does not bare that out. Children need to be involved in parish life early on-- as volunteers, as worshipers, as participants, and as learners. You can't throw a little education at them in second and tenth grades and expect them to stay.
[/quote]

You had me at "You are wrong"

[dominicansoul]

i guess growing up in a very large Catholic family, this never ever crossed my mind, that the Church is somehow lacking in "ministry" to children...

My family was for me, an early "monastery/convent/community/Church"...I didn't hunger for anything outside the family...the parish community we belonged to was never lacking to me, because I never went to Church looking for anything other than worship of God with my family...even at a very early age, my only fascination in going to Church was focused completely on the Presence of God in the tabernacle...I had no want of anyone else there...and so I never felt unwelcome...(I can remember as far back as three years of age, wanting to go to Mass, only because at that age, my mother had already explained to me the life of Christ, how much He loves us, and How he died on the Cross for me...and how He loves me soo much, that He stays in that little golden box just to see me when I go to Mass...I remember this very well, as it was my very first impressions of my relationship with Jesus...and then, when Mass was over, my mom would take all of us kids to the altar rail, and we would all talk to Jesus quietly before we left Him.)

..but I guess my family was rare? Everything I ever learned about my Faith and the Church I can honestly say, I learned completely from my mom...thanks, Mom! You did good!

so, I guess I can understand what apparently is saying...the Church does teach that parents are the first teachers of their children...and I've never really understood it when people started talking about how cold, and unwelcome the Church feels. How is that possible? God is there...He's all we need to welcome us into the Church. I've never cared much for ushers to greet me at the door and "make me feel welcome." I have no need of that. God welcomes me as soon as I walk through the doors...

...and perhaps, if there are those who find what the protestants do attractive, well, you can begin something in the Church that caters to that kind of thing...

[dominicansoul]

I think the protestants have all those active programs because their only grasp of the Presence of God is not found in the tabernacle, but in each other, and so, the sense of community supercedes anything else in the protestant churches...

...i think we can take from them, and implement these programs also in the Catholic Church, as we are lacking so much these last 40 years in sound catechesis, that I can now sense a great need for this kind of thing...and we could make the Church stronger in this way...

[dominicansoul]

...but first and foremost, we must teach the Children about the Presence of Christ in the Church, and so they will never feel "unwelcome." First teach the children about Jesus in the Tabernacle, and you will find that everything else falls into place...