A Monastic "field Trip"

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='vee8' date='16 March 2010 - 11:36 AM' timestamp='1268750202' post='2073955']
you mean I have to... to.. to... [b]quite[/b] slacking!! <sigh>
[/quote]

Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming!!!

[IMG]http://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy305/laetitia_crucis/Random/dorykeepswimming.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy305/laetitia_crucis/Random/nunemoticon.gif[/IMG]

[vee]

[quote name='coralieprincess' date='17 March 2010 - 12:18 AM' timestamp='1268749121' post='2073945']
Does anyone happen to know what sort of penances the Dominicans do (Ann Arbor, Nashville, etc.), if any?
Personally, I'm rather disturbed by things like disciplines and cilias... it's one thing to do penance by giving up meat or some other pleasure, it's another thing to intentionally [i]hit[/i] yourself or wear a spiky chain....
[/quote]

I have no idea but I thought this clip from Monty Python was appropriate for this thread.

[media][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0[/url][/media]

[TeresaBenedicta]

Maybe I'm the only one here, but my first reaction to this thread was one of shock. I guess I had no idea that these sorts of things were still practiced today. I'm trying to not be somewhat disturbed. I just keep thinking what my mom would think if she knew that her daughter underwent these sorts of practices!

Perhaps someone can help give a thorough explanation of the practice? I would like to understand it and I think that that would help shake this feeling I get when I think about it.

[Cherie]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='16 March 2010 - 10:26 AM' timestamp='1268749604' post='2073951']
Perhaps some PMers that have been in close association with the DSMME and other Dominican communities will comment and enlighten us.
[/quote]

I know these communities fairly well, and one of the Sisters I was with in the convent used to be a Nashville Dominican (not to mention some of the founders!) -- plus our Mother Superior is blood-sister to Mother Assumpta, foundress of the DSMME, so we knew them very well.

From what I understand, the Dominican Sisters in those communities do not use corporal penances as such, but they do make regular use of silence, asking penances (if you break something, you ask your Superior for a penance, which will be a visit to the Chapel, or to say some prayers), and other forms of penance.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='16 March 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1268752094' post='2073983']
Maybe I'm the only one here, but my first reaction to this thread was one of shock. I guess I had no idea that these sorts of things were still practiced today. I'm trying to not be somewhat disturbed. I just keep thinking what my mom would think if she knew that her daughter underwent these sorts of practices!

Perhaps someone can help give a thorough explanation of the practice? I would like to understand it and I think that that would help shake this feeling I get when I think about it.
[/quote]

There was a really good thread posted in the Q&A Board (which was then moved to Transmundane Lane) about penances and mortifications a while ago... Hmmmm... let's see if I can find it...

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101778&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1"]Hardcore Penances and the Saints -- Don't we have enough to deal with already?[/url]

Ziggamafu also posted a most excellent article in his response to that thread.

Overall, I found that thread really helpful!

And well, I think most parents would feel the same way as your parents if they knew their children were partaking in such practices, especially in our contemporary times. We are creatures of comfort and made of weak human flesh. It is only natural for us to flinch or feel at least somewhat disturbed about the gaining of supernatural merits via corporal mortifications and penances.

[b]Edit:[/b] Even in my former community, Sisters were cautioned to discern carefully who they told about their penances (if they felt the need to share this), especially in regards to one's parents. I, for one, never told my parents about that aspect of our life. My mother had already once thought I had been locked up somewhere as punishment when I wasn't able to call her for about two weeks in the novitiate (usually we call home once a week -- we happened to be particularly busy those two weeks, hence no time for a phone call). She was hysterical when she finally got to talk to me. It was almost scary. Poor mom.

Edited March 16, 2010 by laetitia crucis

[AccountDeleted]

It's true that most communities doe not speak about such penances except with those who are entering, and even then it can sometimes cause feelings of fear, disgust, revulsion etc. I think one of the reasons that it causes such reactions though is because of the secrecy. Anything that is not well known becomes something suspect and seems 'weird'. If corporal penance were brought out into the light of day, then people could see that it is just one more type of mortification and it doesn't necessarily have to appeal to everyone.

Recently there was a thread posted on phatmass about this, and the blog article link was by a man who uses cold showers as a corporal mortification. Now, having been forced to take cold water showers during times of great poverty in my life, the idea of this is worse to me than some of the other things I have come across as a nun It is probably a lot harder too since it lasts longer. Try washing your hair in a cold water shower!

The thing is that without the correct interior attitude, no corporal penance is worth doing and truly is the 'penance of beasts' (St J of C). Getting to 7am Mass in the winter in the dark isn't easy either.

There are millions of ways to mortify oneself. The other day my back was very itchy, and I was about to scratch it when I thought of this thread, and the hair shirt, and I decided not to scratch but to think of Jesus on the Cross, being unable to move or scratch himself, with the blood and sweat from his head running into his eyes.

The whole point of penance is to mortify our self-love, to share in the sufferings of Jesus and to offer reparation for our sin and the sins of others. It is a perfect opportunity to pray for the Church during her times of trouble now.

But we are all called to offer prayers and sacrifices in different ways. A mother with a lot of children, may need no other penances in her life, whereas a self-indulgent person like myself with no one else to care for, might find it good to take on a few exterior penances from time to time.

A good rule of thumb with penance could be 'if it weirds you out, dont do it'.

Edited March 16, 2010 by nunsense

[vee]

My two cents in an attempt to answer Teresa B`s question. The thought of these types of corporal penances was very shocking to me too but Im slowly starting to understand a tiny bit of the meaning of it. Suffering has value because for one it makes up what is lacking in the earthly mystical body of the church, and as our Lady of Fatima said many go to hell because they have no one to offer prayers and sacrifices for them. If by my suffering I can save one soul from hell and/or make up for my sins and the sins of even one other person so that I and they may make it into heaven then a little physical pain is a small price to pay to escape eternal pain. Also there is love involved, the love of God and the love of others, whereby one seeks to make up for the horrible things members the mystical body of the church do and obtain graces for those people so they change their lives.

As for parents knowing that their child is suffering in such a way thats a tough one and what I think of right now is this. Say they have a daughter who gets married and has children well she is going to undergo a lot of physical pain just to give birth, if a daughter enters religious life in a penitential community she undergoes pain to give birth to spiritual children.

I hope that made some sense!

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='vee8' date='16 March 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1268789948' post='2074344']
My two cents in an attempt to answer Teresa B`s question. The thought of these types of corporal penances was very shocking to me too but Im slowly starting to understand a tiny bit of the meaning of it. Suffering has value because for one it makes up what is lacking in the earthly mystical body of the church, and as our Lady of Fatima said many go to hell because they have no one to offer prayers and sacrifices for them. If by my suffering I can save one soul from hell and/or make up for my sins and the sins of even one other person so that I and they may make it into heaven then a little physical pain is a small price to pay to escape eternal pain. Also there is love involved, the love of God and the love of others, whereby one seeks to make up for the horrible things members the mystical body of the church do and obtain graces for those people so they change their lives.

As for parents knowing that their child is suffering in such a way thats a tough one and what I think of right now is this. Say they have a daughter who gets married and has children well she is going to undergo a lot of physical pain just to give birth, if a daughter enters religious life in a penitential community she undergoes pain to give birth to spiritual children.

I hope that made some sense!
[/quote]

Vee-8 This was a most beautiful and accurate post of the meaning behind penance. Thank you for explaining it so beautifully!

[vee]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='17 March 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1268790516' post='2074353']
Vee-8 This was a most beautiful and accurate post of the meaning behind penance. Thank you for explaining it so beautifully!
[/quote]

My method is to help people understand penance and suffering by giving them something to read that was so horribly written.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='vee8' date='16 March 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1268790978' post='2074358']
My method is to help people understand penance and suffering by giving them something to read that was so horribly written.
[/quote]

Laughing... you made my day!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='coralieprincess' date='17 March 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1268799539' post='2074458']
But didn't Christ die so that [i]we[/i] wouldn't have to make up for our sins, because there's nothing we can do to pay that price anyway? The idea of us suffering to save people from hell, or to make reparations for sins (unless it's reparation that's directly connected to our personal sins, i.e. apologizing to someone we've wronged), seems to miss the entire point of Christ's sacrifice.
[/quote]


This is a really good question, but it is a theological one that you might want to post over on Transmundane or Debate phorums to get really good answers. St. Paul does say that he suffers to make up for what is lacking in Christ's sacrifice and that we have to keep on working to complete our salvation. Not that Christ's sacrifice was deficient but that sins are always being committed and he allows us to participate in our own salvation. The Protestants think that we have to do nothing else because 'once saved, always saved' but in the letter to St James it says 'Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.'

I think that is the theory behind indulgences, as well as penances and mortifications offered up for others. We can always benefit others through our prayers, and through our offerings in other ways such as penance. Lent is such a good example of this. But no penance or mortification has any merit if the interior attitude isn't right. That's why St Paul talks about love being the most important thing of all and why St John of the Cross calls physical penances the 'penances of beasts'. He did many physical mortifications himself, but he always stressed that the interior mortifications were much more important than the exterior ones. One act of selflessness done in charity is worth much more than any physical penance. But that doesn't invalidate the use or worth of physical penances. It is simply a matter of balance. Prayer, fasting, penance. All these things are for the good of our souls, to bring us closer to Christ and His plan of salvation for us. He said that we would fast when the Bridgegroom had left us. What is fasting if not a physical penance?

'Common sense is the guide to the virtues.' (St Albert's Rule)

[brandelynmarie]

[quote name='nunsense' date='17 March 2010 - 02:10 AM' timestamp='1268802626' post='2074484']
This is a really good question, but it is a theological one that you might want to post over on Transmundane or Debate phorums to get really good answers. St. Paul does say that he suffers to make up for what is lacking in Christ's sacrifice and that we have to keep on working to complete our salvation. Not that Christ's sacrifice was deficient but that sins are always being committed and he allows us to participate in our own salvation. The Protestants think that we have to do nothing else because 'once saved, always saved' but in the letter to St James it says 'Faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.'

I think that is the theory behind indulgences, as well as penances and mortifications offered up for others. We can always benefit others through our prayers, and through our offerings in other ways such as penance. Lent is such a good example of this. But no penance or mortification has any merit if the interior attitude isn't right. That's why St Paul talks about love being the most important thing of all and why St John of the Cross calls physical penances the 'penances of beasts'. He did many physical mortifications himself, but he always stressed that the interior mortifications were much more important than the exterior ones. One act of selflessness done in charity is worth much more than any physical penance. But that doesn't invalidate the use or worth of physical penances. It is simply a matter of balance. Prayer, fasting, penance. All these things are for the good of our souls, to bring us closer to Christ and His plan of salvation for us. He said that we would fast when the Bridgegroom had left us. What is fasting if not a physical penance?

'Common sense is the guide to the virtues.' (St Albert's Rule)
[/quote]


Wonderfully explained!

[vee]

[quote name='brandelynmarie' date='17 March 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1268831927' post='2074528']
Wonderfully explained!
[/quote]

Agreed!

Id like to add a couple of more thoughts to that too. First pray and ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand this concept of suffering and penance as thats what helped me. Secondly God gives the graces needed to do any vocation and I think a penitential vocation is an example of that.

[TeresaBenedicta]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't know. I understand penance and its importance. And it makes sense to me the [i]denying[/i] of oneself as penance-- denying oneself hot water in the shower, denying oneself certain foods, denying oneself the comfort of warm and comfortable bed situations, etc. I suppose where I tend to get confused is when the penance is more directly active-- whipping oneself, wearing a spiked belt, etc. In moral theology we learn that one never ought to do a bad action so that good may come of it. I suppose in my mind I can't separate these particular actions from self-mutilation.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='18 March 2010 - 06:41 AM' timestamp='1268854918' post='2074752']
Thanks for the replies.

I don't know. I understand penance and its importance. And it makes sense to me the [i]denying[/i] of oneself as penance-- denying oneself hot water in the shower, denying oneself certain foods, denying oneself the comfort of warm and comfortable bed situations, etc. I suppose where I tend to get confused is when the penance is more directly active-- whipping oneself, wearing a spiked belt, etc. In moral theology we learn that one never ought to do a bad action so that good may come of it. I suppose in my mind I can't separate these particular actions from self-mutilation.
[/quote]


And that is why you shouldn't do them. And also why I said that this topic might be better answered on another forum, where there are experts. There is a great thread going on right now about the movie the Passion and I will quote one of the links below about picking up the Cross. One thing to point out though, is that NO ONE has said anything about self-mutiliation. This is not intended, and if that is what is happening, then the person should not be doing this type of penance, there is something wrong there. When the discipline is used, one is cautioned always against injuring oneself. And one can see it simply as a symbolic representation if this is what they want to do, using it over the clothes and very lightly --- or NOT AT ALL. If one does not understand why they are doing it, then they shouldn't be doing it. If one can't enter into and share in the Passion of Christ, then it simply is not a good aid for that person to use. They should try something else to remember His suffering and to offer reparation.

After Christianity became the accepted religion and Christians wer no longer being persectured, they found other ways to share in Christ's suffering. That is when religious life started to emerge and also other forms of penance.

Those who already have great sufferings in their lives, do not need to add to these sufferings with physical penances. But some of us live more or less self-indulgent lives (compared with much of the world) and this is how we may choose to make reparation. It is very personal.

From the Passion thread... it isn't about corporal mortification, but it does tal about self-denial and I like that.
[quote]
THE CROSS TEACHES US HOW TO DENY SELF

Never once does our Lord say, "Stoop down and let me lay a cross on you."
Jesus is not in the drafting business; his army is all volunteer. Not all
Christians carry crosses. You can be a believer without carrying a cross, but
you cannot be a disciple.

I see many believers rejecting the way of the cross. They have opted for the
good life with its prosperity, its material gain, its popularity and success.
I'm sure that many of them will make it to heaven- they will have saved
their skins-but they will not have learned Christ. Having rejected the
suffering and sorrow of the cross, they will not have the capacity to know and
enjoy him in eternity, as will all the cross-bearing saints who have entered
into the fellowship of the suffering.

You will have to carry your cross until you learn to deny. Deny what? The one
thing that constantly hinders God's work in our lives-self. Jesus said, "If
any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross, and
follow me" (Matthew 16:24). We are misinterpreting this message if we emphasize
self-denial, that is, the rejection of material or unlawful things. Jesus was
not calling upon us to learn self-discipline before we take up our cross. It is
far more severe than that. Jesus is asking that we deny ourselves. This means to
deny your own ability to carry any cross in your own strength. In other words,
"Don't take up your cross until you are ready to reject any and every thought
on becoming a holy disciple as a result of your own effort."

Millions of professing Christians boast of their self-denial. They don't drink,
smoke, curse or fornicate-they are examples of tremendous self-discipline. But
not in a hundred years would they admit it was accomplished by anything other
than their own willpower. They are practicing self-denial, but they have never
denied self. In some ways, we are all like that. We experience "spurts" of
holiness, accompanied by feelings of purity. Good works usually produce good
feelings, but God will not allow us to think our good works and clean habits
can save us. That is why we need a cross.

I believe Jesus is actually saying to us, "Before you take up your cross, be
ready to face a moment of truth. Be ready to experience a crisis by which you
will learn to deny your self-will, your self-righteousness, your
self-sufficiency, your self-authority. You can rise up and follow me as a true
disciple only when you can freely admit you can do nothing in your own
strength-you cannot overcome sin through your own willpower-your
temptations cannot be overcome by your self-efforts alone-you cannot work
things out by your own intellect.

Your love for Jesus can put you on your knees but your cross will put you on
your face.
by D. Wikerson
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