Exegesis Of St. James

[Brother Adam]

It is the Word and the Water combined. Unlike Gnosticism which declares matter evil. In a covenant there must be a way to enter it and exit it, or it is not a covenant. Instead of circumcision, we have baptism.

Through baptism we are "saved" or "liberated from evil". That is, we are cleansed of original sin. Think about it: You didn't do anything to become a sinful human being, and you don't do anything to be freed of it. You simply particpate in the new covenant in Christ's blood. How cool is that?

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 10:58 AM'] i love christ, do you read my posts?  or is english a second language?

is it really THAT hard to comprehend?  or are you SOOO far in the catholic indoctrination that you can't comprehend what isn't thrown at you from the Vatican and its catacombs?

you don't need works to obtain salvation.  to get saved all you need is faith, to say otherwise is unbiblical. 

faith in Christ will yield forth fruit, and growth, bringing more faith, and more fruit and so on and so forth.

contradicting?  hardly.  just because I speak of things not found in your compendium of catholicism does not mean you can not process this for yourself and find it to be true.

can you NOT think for yourself?

or are you so spoon fed by the Church that you no longer look things up to see for yourself?

I can not persuade you to think one way or another, all I can do is present to you what has been put on my heart.  Its your choice.

poke fun at me all you want, call me a heretic, say I'm not a Christian, I don't give a RIP...I know what God it is I serve (and its not your wafer or your pope) and I know what He would have me do. [/quote]
wow. i shall pray for you lumberjack.

though i can easily be offended by what you said, i cannot hold against you what you do not know nor understand, but rather am sad on what you clearly misunderstand and how you delivered it.

just remember LJ, the Catholic Church is not an enemy, She's everyone's Mother, whether they may not realize it or not.

though you won't understand what my above statement is saying, know that you are in my prayers.

[i]For the Sake of His sorrowful Passion, Have mercy on us and on the whole world.[/i]



+JMJ

[the lumberjack]

it is very cool brother, but like I posted, it isn't the actual water washing of baptism that saves us, but the spiritual reality behind the immersion in water - an answer of a good conscience toward God, a conscience made good through the completed work of Jesus Christ.

I, like Peter, am placing emphasis on the spiritual action behind the physical one...that is why Protestants say that it is more symbolic than anything else. its not the baptism that saves you, but what you are saying to the Lord thru it. private, public, who cares? but I'd rather let the WHOLE WORLD see it...as do just about all the other Protestants in the world.

just like you posted it...and just like Peter wrote it.

and we do need to be baptized. Because Christ commanded it.

BUT, if we are not...that will not prohibit us from entering into the Kingdom of Heaven.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 03:35 PM'] and we do need to be baptized. Because Christ commanded it.

BUT, if we are not...that will not prohibit us from entering into the Kingdom of Heaven. [/quote]
Why did Christ command something that is not neccesary?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 03:35 PM'] it is very cool brother, but like I posted, it isn't the actual water washing of baptism that saves us, but the spiritual reality behind the immersion in water - an answer of a good conscience toward God, a conscience made good through the completed work of Jesus Christ.

I, like Peter, am placing emphasis on the spiritual action behind the physical one...that is why Protestants say that it is more symbolic than anything else. its not the baptism that saves you, but what you are saying to the Lord thru it. private, public, who cares? but I'd rather let the WHOLE WORLD see it...as do just about all the other Protestants in the world.

just like you posted it...and just like Peter wrote it.

and we do need to be baptized. Because Christ commanded it.

BUT, if we are not...that will not prohibit us from entering into the Kingdom of Heaven. [/quote]
Right, which is why water in itself is meaningless. It is the power of God behind the action that has meaning and causes a change.

[the lumberjack]

you'll get an Amen for that.

AMEN!

but are you saying that at this point you are saved?

and that the repentence of sins, and handing of your life to Christ was not your salvation?

now, like I've said, it may be possible for me to be wrong...

are you saying that at our repentence we are justified?

and that at our baptism we are sanctified?

I can see that...I think.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 03:55 PM'] now, like I've said, it may be possible for me to be wrong... [/quote]
You keep saying this. How do we know what things are absolute truth? Where is that defined?

[Brother Adam]

The wonderful mess of systematic theology

I'm basically saying in the world of covenant theology, you can be forgiven of sins through the "sinners prayer" or such, however one is not adopted as a "son of God" until they are baptized. That is why the Catholic Church basically says if you killed before you can be baptized you will go to heaven, assuming your conversion was genuine.

Thus, baptism plays a part in our justification, that is, our liberation from evil. However, it is not to be viewed as a "meritorious work which a person does to save themselves". One can only participate in the work of God and be saved. No one can save themselves. Our good fruits after salvation are also a participation in our salvation as St. Paul said his sufferings were "united to the cross to make up for what is lacking".

Together, this is why a Catholic says "we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved." Or "We have been liberated from evil, we are being liberated from evil, and we will be liberated from evil".

[the lumberjack]

[quote]I'm basically saying in the world of covenant theology, you can be forgiven of sins through the "sinners prayer" or such, however one is not adopted as a "son of God" until they are baptized. That is why the Catholic Church basically says if you killed before you can be baptized you will go to heaven, assuming your conversion was genuine.[/quote]

then how is that different when protestants say that if we don't get baptized, it won't prevent us from entering heaven?

and how can you NOT be a son of God after having repented and given your life to Christ? John 1:12 seems to say it well:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

[quote]Thus, baptism plays a part in our justification, that is, our liberation from evil. However, it is not to be viewed as a "meritorious work which a person does to save themselves". One can only participate in the work of God and be saved. No one can save themselves. Our good fruits after salvation are also a participation in our salvation as St. Paul said his sufferings were "united to the cross to make up for what is lacking".[/quote]

hmmmm....ok.

[quote]Together, this is why a Catholic says "we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved." Or "We have been liberated from evil, we are being liberated from evil, and we will be liberated from evil".[/quote]

this is why protestants say, "I have been saved, and delivered from evil. Now my righteous walk with Christ will keep me there, though I am not perfect or worthy, His strength is made perfect thru my weakness." just like Paul with his thorn in the flesh.

[Brother Adam]

[b]then how is that different when protestants say that if we don't get baptized, it won't prevent us from entering heaven?[/b]

Because it is directly commanded by Christ and closely tied with our redemption into the New Covenant. If someone doesn't understand that they need to be baptized (that is ignorant not by their own will) than they have been basically baptized by desire, as Catholics put it.

However if someone knows Christ commands baptism but refuses to be baptized, where does that put them? They are flat out rejecting the commands of Christ. Christ's response to this is "He cannot be my disciple".

The only objection a Catholic might actually have to faith alone is that in some definitions "faith alone" is defined as a faith that does not need obedience. Dead, alive, mediocre. Whatever. As long as someone has prayed and said they accept Christ nothing else matters- yet Christ says our works DO matter. They don't earn us salvation as in replacing Christ's role as the paschal lamb. This is what so many Protestants think Catholics are doing- "If I have so many good works and have faith I can go to heaven. I.E. Faith+ X number of Works=Heaven.

Formulas don't work with Catholicism though. There is somewhat of an incomprehinsable mystery to our liberation from evil. If I were to make a formula for Catholic salvation like protestants do I would have an infinity sign (sideways 8) with faith and works (or "Faith working in love) all within that infinity sign.

It is a life of faithfulness that Catholics stress brings eternal redemption, whereas it is a moment of conversion that most reformed Protestants stress. However Catholics say that it is a moment of conversion that brings adoption as a son of God (in baptism) or forgiveness (in repentance in some cases)----> initial salvation (for most people that is infant baptism).

Hopefully that made more sense than confusion

Edited April 12, 2004 by Brother Adam

[ilovechrist]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 12 2004, 11:58 AM'] you don't need works to obtain salvation. to get saved all you need is faith, to say otherwise is unbiblical. [/quote]
BUT lumberjack---IS it to say otherwise than that unbiblical?! English is actually the primary language (with Spanish as my 2nd), but it would really help if you were able to back what you preach with more evidence so i could understand your point better--then my point might make sense to you later.

[quote]can you NOT think for yourself?
or are you so spoon fed by the Church that you no longer look things up to see for yourself?[/quote]

however, if you just choose to attempt a bashing of what i believe in, then you won't have many willing to debate with you on this.
also--as dave pointed out-if you think that the Pope is God, and that we worship wafers... u have some more RCIA classes to attend.

i will only agree with you on one point--neither of us can decide for each other who is right, it's only a debate.

[Justified Saint]

If you are being spoonfed by the Church, you are in good company.

At least we don't have Bruce spoonfeeding us what the Catholic faith is.

[CatholicCrusader]

Bruce, if you really believe that anti-Saint James, lutheran nonsense, then you certainly cannot also claim that all Scripture is from God and is "profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice", c.f., II St. Timothy iii.16. I feel that any honest Bible scholar will surely accept the Catholic teaching, and this has been proven, so I will make only one commment. In response to a Protestant's earlier claim that Baptism is not necessary for salvation, why don't you read what the Bible says about it? There are very many references where it is commanded as necessary, but it is said most explicity, by Our Lord Himself in Saint John's Gospel, c.f., St. John iii. This is straight from the Bible, said by God Himself, "Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Where does it say "Don't worry about Baptism, just make sure they are saved" or "They don't really need to be born again of water and the Holy Ghost as long as it is the Holy Ghost in some other form", i.e., blood, desire, etc? God bless.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]Bulls-eye! This means that our good works are not our own. Our good works are incapable of satisfying God. It is thru Christ alone that any of our works are capable of being classified as 'good.' In my own strength, I can do all the good(man-pleasing) works I want. And yes, they may be good things. But if I am doing them out of an attitude of "If I do these things then surely God will be pleased with me," I'm doing them for the wrong reason. My works should spring up out of my love for God. Only then am I doing any works on God's terms.[/quote]

I don't think you could have said it any better.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 12 2004, 10:27 AM'] But Paul tells us that any good in him is not of himself, but of Christ. It is in Christ that any good is accomplished thru us. [/quote]
I don't think you'll find a Catholic on this board who will deny this (1 Cor 15:10, Phil 2:12-13, Gal 2:20). It is simple biblical teaching. This is how the Catholic Church reconciles the two seemingly contradictory biblical teachings that salvation is both a gift of God and a reward for works (Matt 5:12, 6:3-4, 16:27, 25:34 et seq., Luke 6:35, 14:13-14, Rom 2:6, 1 Cor 3:8, Eph 6:8, 2 Tim 4:6-8).