Mary Ever Virgin

[Shpout]

lol!
wow guys thanks for all the support!
I got over it pretty quick, the whole thing got annoying, but it did get me on a kick to learn more and more, and all your resources are super helpful!
I love the point cmotherofpirl made about if Mary had other children... that makes total sense!
aaaaaand i saw this link (HA! lol jk) about how Martin Luther (their hero) accepted Mary's perpetual virginity... interesting! http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm
oh boy I just love being Catholic! at least we have mysteries and do not need to understand everything or put it all to a 'human level'!
again thanks guys!

[Shpout]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='11 March 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1268328351' post='2070987']
Hey guys, on the phatmass homepage there's a link that says defense directory right beneath the forum link. If you click it and go to Mary >> Perpetual virginity, it'll provide a bunch of websites to set them prots straight.

http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/12

Some of the sites listed there are amazen.
[/quote]
sweet thanks!

[Veridicus]

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a27.htm

This webpage offers a great scriptural discussion of the Jesus's 'brothers. It's worth getting a bible out and following along. I found it quite useful in debunking my protestant friends in college.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

This has been the best website for me on apologetics(or defending the faith). Please check it out, you will not be dissapointed at all! [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/"]Scripture Catholic[/url]

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

From scripturecatholic.com


[b]Mary is Ever Virgin[/b]

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the "first-born" son of Mary. But "first-born" is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the "first-born" son had to be sanctified. "First-born" status does not require a "second" born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary's perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as "the" son of Mary, not "a" son of Mary. Also "brothers" could have theoretically been Joseph's children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you "will" conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, "How shall this be?" Mary's response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger "brothers" were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus' biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as "the other Mary."

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the "brothers" of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus' cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of "Alpheus." This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

Edited March 12, 2010 by sacredheartandbloodofjesus

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

More from the site.


[b]Jesus' "Brothers" (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen[/b]

Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."

Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his "brethren." In this case, we clearly see Jesus using "brethren" to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. That is a lot of "brothers." Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that "brethren" can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah's 42 "brethren" were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar's daughters married their "brethren" who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of "brothers" meaning "cousins" or "kinsmen."

Tobit 5:11 - Tobit asks Azarias to identify himself and his people, but still calls him "brother."

Amos 1: 9 - brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).

Edited March 12, 2010 by sacredheartandbloodofjesus

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

and some more.


[b]Misunderstanding about Matthew 1:25 (Joseph knew her "not until")[/b]

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her "not until ("heos", in Greek)" she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because "not until" does not mean "did not...until after." "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove "not until" means "not up to the point that":

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you "until the end of the world." This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert "up to the point of his manifestation to Israel." Not John "was in the desert until after" his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow "up to the point that" she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, "take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool." Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

1 Tim. 4:13 - "up to the point that I come," attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing "until after" I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth "up to the point that" [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won't leave Jacob "up to the point that" he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but "up to the point of today" no one knows Moses' burial place. This does not mean that "they did not know place until today."

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul's daughter Micah was childless "up to the point" [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 - not one was slain "up to the point that" they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

bump

[Shpout]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='15 March 2010 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1268671620' post='2073502']
bump
[/quote]
wow! thanks, awesome resources! i love it!!
and bump back!

[LouisvilleFan]

If you really wanna throw them Baptists for a loop, tell 'em that not only do you believe Mary has no other children, but "Ever Virgin" also includes physical virginity. In other words, she remained virgin even in giving birth to Jesus. Like walking into a closed-off room without opening the door or breaking down a wall.

Let 'em chew on that

Edited March 17, 2010 by LouisvilleFan

[Veridicus]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='17 March 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1268870216' post='2074881']
If you really wanna throw them Baptists for a loop, tell 'em that not only do you believe Mary has no other children, but "Ever Virgin" also includes physical virginity. In other words, she remained virgin even in giving birth to Jesus. Like walking into a closed-off room without opening the door or breaking down a wall.

Let 'em chew on that
[/quote]

I think Luther believed that. Not sure about Calvin though..

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='17 March 2010 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1268870216' post='2074881']
If you really wanna throw them Baptists for a loop, tell 'em that not only do you believe Mary has no other children, but "Ever Virgin" also includes physical virginity. In other words, she remained virgin even in giving birth to Jesus. Like walking into a closed-off room without opening the door or breaking down a wall.

Let 'em chew on that
[/quote]
Yep.