Juicy Easter Conversation

[mulls]

I was talking with my grandmother after Easter dinner tonight. She has been a faithful Catholic her whole life. She knows that i'm not Catholic anymore, and seems to be ok with it. In fact, after dinner, she started asking me questions...


she wanted to know who i believed a sinner was, why Jesus died, if there was a hell, and other things. we pretty much agreed on everything.


we even agreed that we didn't believe in purgatory. i told her i was surprised since this was a catholic teaching....but she told me that the local priest, who has been a very good friend of the family for a very long time, does not believe in purgatory either. i told her that was a serious thing, that he might get in trouble about that....she said the priest told her this in a private conversation, 'off the record' so to speak.


also, my grandmother, who never questioned any doctrine that i know of (she's the most devout catholic that i know of), began questioning the saints. she then went off on a semi-tangent about religion being pounded into her head from the time she was a little girl, and she's never known any other way. now that she is older, she understands that her time is short, and she wants to be sure of things. i told her to get into the bible, to devour it. i knew she had one in the house, but she said its too old and wants me to get her a new one. i'm going to oblige.


i'd like to get your take on this. i never, ever mentioned to my grandma how the catholic church was wrong or evil or anything remotely close to that. she seems to be questioning things all on her own....she wants to make sure she has it right before she dies, and i don't blame her. i'm going to help her as much as possible.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 11 2004, 09:39 PM'] we even agreed that we didn't believe in purgatory. i told her i was surprised since this was a catholic teaching....but she told me that the local priest, who has been a very good friend of the family for a very long time, does not believe in purgatory either. [/quote]
You need to tell her that the definition of the sin of heresy, according to the Catholic Church, is the denial of one or more dogmas of the Church, and that purgatory is Catholic dogma. Her priest is in grave dereliction of duty if he's telling his sheep that he does not believe in it and that that's alright. The priest may have a civil right to privately believe whatever he wants to believe, but he is in a position to speak for the Catholic Church, and people will be inclined to believe that if he says it's alright not to believe something then it is in fact alright. Well, according to the Catholic Church, it is not. Disbelieving in purgatory is a mortal sin, unless excused by invincible ignorance. This priest has a moral duty to tell the truth about what the Catholic Church teaches, even if he may disagree.

[quote]also, my grandmother, who never questioned any doctrine that i know of (she's the most devout catholic that i know of), began questioning the saints. she then went off on a semi-tangent about religion being pounded into her head from the time she was a little girl, and she's never known any other way. now that she is older, she understands that her time is short, and she wants to be sure of things. i told her to get into the bible, to devour it. i knew she had one in the house, but she said its too old and wants me to get her a new one. i'm going to oblige.[/quote]
By all means.

[ironmonk]

Purgatory is in the bible.

The Catholic Church did not come up with the concept. The jews did, hundreds of years before Christ. The Catholic Church only gave it a name.

The priest is wrong.


[b]Isaiah 6:5 [/b]
Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
[b]6 [/b]Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.
[b]7 [/b]He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."


[b]1 John 5:16[/b]
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.

[b]Rev 21:27 [/b]
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins.


[b]1 Cor 3:15 [/b]
But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

How can we be saved from Hell, because Hell is eternal? This being saved as through fire can only be Purgatory, where our lesser sins will be purged from us.




Purgatory from the Catechism, The Official Teaching of the Catholic Church:



III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory
1030
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


1031
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608


1032
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611


607: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608: St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609: 2 Macc 12:46.
611: St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.

------------------------------

[url="http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish"]http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish[/url]

[b]Kaddish [/b]
Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.


[b]Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?[/b]

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d's injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

A person is permitted to recite Kaddish for other close relatives as well as parents, but only if his parents are dead.

See Mourners' Kaddish for the full text of the Mourners' Kaddish.





The Jews believed in Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, and Limbo before Christ... why shouldn't we?

All the first Christians believed in it, why shouldn't we?

Purgatory does not necessarily mean a place, it can be something that happens.

To be a bible Christian one must worship and have the faith of what the first Christans have... and only faithful Catholics have the faith of the Apostles.

To deny purgatory is either not knowing it or saying Christ was wrong. Christ promised that the Church would be guided in all truth. Did He lie or was He wrong? If the "Church" is the body of believers and they all disagree, then how can the Church be guided in all truth?

The only way for the Church to be guided in all truth is that the Church IS the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has the Successor of Peter... the Pope.



If you are going to reply to this, please address the issue logically. In it's most simplest terms...Everything must have an answer. Either there is a purgatory or there is no God.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Hananiah' date='Apr 11 2004, 10:19 PM'] You need to tell her that the definition of the sin of heresy, according to the Catholic Church, is the denial of one or more dogmas of the Church, and that purgatory is Catholic dogma... [/quote]
Remember, Mulls, as a non-Catholic, isn't bound by any agreement to evangelize Catholic teachings to Catholics.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Apr 12 2004, 02:16 AM'] Remember, Mulls, as a non-Catholic, isn't bound by any agreement to evangelize Catholic teachings to Catholics. [/quote]
Anyone who claims to follow Christ is bound to follow truth.

[Bruce S]

[quote]Anyone who claims to follow Christ is bound to follow truth.
[/quote]

So many do just that....

Wherever that leads, with great fear and courage.

I did.

[ilovechrist]

REGARDLESS of who does it, someone really needs to investigate that parish and its priest, do we not all agree? ironmonk does have a point that if a person has made the choice, then he/she must do what Christ's followers do --speak truth.

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 12 2004, 05:40 AM']
So many do just that....

Wherever that leads, with great fear and courage.

I did. [/quote]
Think again, Bruce. You followed not Christ but your feelings and opinions. They led you out of the Church.

[MC Just]

Br. Bob Fishman, a jewish convert to the Catholic Faith said everything in Catholicism, comes from the jews. Purgatory, Indulgences. holy water,, making sacred signs before entering church (jews had a little thingamajig on the wall that held a scroll with a verse from deuteronomy, they would kiss their fingers and touch the scroll. The procession we have at mass, jews have always done the same thing. Candles, prayers to ancestors who have passed (Prayers to saints), Priests, Altars and the "Todah" (Thanksgiving, "Eucharistia" Offering, the only offering, sacrafice left after the coming of Christ. Nothing is an "Invention" in Catholicism.

[dUSt]

mulls,

I would tell your grandmother to go talk to a different priest. I would also encourage her to spend some time in front of the Holy Eucharist--praying in His physical presence.

The Bible will not interpret itself--we must seek the help of God.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 12 2004, 10:11 AM'] mulls,

I would tell your grandmother to go talk to a different priest. I would also encourage her to spend some time in front of the Holy Eucharist--praying in His physical presence.

The Bible will not interpret itself--we must seek the help of God. [/quote]
Wow Dust! You sound just like a Protestant! :ph34r:

[dUSt]

[quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 12 2004, 10:13 AM'] Wow Dust! You sound just like a Protestant! :ph34r: [/quote]
AMEN! Preach it brother!

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 12 2004, 04:40 AM']
So many do just that....

Wherever that leads, with great fear and courage.

I did. [/quote]
We all do. Naturally.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 12 2004, 12:13 PM'] Wow Dust! You sound just like a Protestant! :ph34r: [/quote]
Actually... seeing that all protestants came out of the Catholic Church; some protestants sound like Catholics.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[MagiDragon]

Mulls: if you do choose to get your grandma a bible, make sure it is a Catholic bible. It should have an Imprimateur on the first few pages.