Indwelling Trinity Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='Hroswitha1943' date='07 March 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1268001835' post='2068297'] Sister Emmanuel, What could be the agenda of someone who simply points out misinformation? A thing is true or not. In Gemma's ( or Amy's) case, misinformation has been given and people are being misled. I, personally, spoke to the sister that Amy claims is guiding her "projects," and the sister says that she has nothing to do with them and the Diocese does not support them. It's that simple. Nothing you said in your post has any bearing on this simple fact. People have a right to know when they are being misinformed. [/quote] I agree people have right to know when they are being misinformed at the same time I have been reading two parallel threads on vocation station on this matter. and dog piling on one person who in fact in reality may be overstating things in order just to survive the attacks of some others to me bespeaks of a lack of tenderness. Maybe in reality although overstating facts, Gemma may be really trying to do the best she can to answer God according to the drummer she hears. And I use The name Gemma in respect to her right for the same anonymity that anyone here on this forum is entitled too. My own anonymity is not important as i have posted my e- mail on this site and use the handle only as an expression of a personal devotion. However my pics and name are real and not faked. As for vocations I assume they are intelligent younger or older adults who will seek counsel before jumping into anything. Maybe I am assuming too much. This may seem off topic but if you really think about it, it is not. Speaking to my pastor who was vocational director for my own diocese for over 30 years, about the proposed community which I feel God has put in my heart, ( and until now I have not been told to cease and desist by any church authority, even though everything is not in place as one would like as it takes time, proving and lived reality) Father gave me this very sound counsel... and that was to be careful not to "put out the smoldering wick or crush the bruised reed..." My point being that possible something real true and lasting, could be hidden among all the human weaknesses inherent in Her approach. Father also told me to allow others to take little steps and learn from their mistakes. What may start out as only a broken or tiny little seed often needs only to be watered, encouraged gently in truth and be given time to grow. Gemma is on her own growth pattern as are we all. I would propose that it would be more effective and loving to gently point out the truth lovingly and allow her to seek her own truth slowly. I do not condone misrepresentation but have found that folks often say things that are not quite the truth when they feel under attack. It is a psychological fact that this often happens, It is called self preservation. I don't know about anyone else here.. but I AM one of the poorest of the poor and from my ow brokeness also prone to judge. I have to desist from that if I am to give any truth to what i say or do. Can we not have empathy and put ourselves in Gemma's place on how we would feel and react if all this negative feedback were coming at us? Truth without compassion is nothing more than cruelty and it is this i object too. I guess i feel i have been forgiven so much so many times by God .... who am i to pronounce my judgments on others... Yes there are time we all must Take a stand and make valid judgments in our lives about things, but let us also understand the human condition... we are all sinners and need of healing.... For those of you who can, please read between the lines. For it is hard for me to articulate this without injuring others. Tenderly, Indwelling Trinity (aka: Sister Emmanuel, HSMC-A) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroswitha1943 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 March 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1268005712' post='2068364'] I agree people have right to know when they are being misinformed at the same time I have been reading two parallel threads on vocation station on this matter. and dog piling on one person who in fact in reality may be overstating things in order just to survive the attacks of some others to me bespeaks of a lack of tenderness. Maybe in reality although overstating facts, Gemma may be really trying to do the best she can to answer God according to the drummer she hears. And I use The name Gemma in respect to her right for the same anonymity that anyone here on this forum is entitled too. My own anonymity is not important as i have posted my e- mail on this site and use the handle only as an expression of a personal devotion. However my pics and name are real and not faked. As for vocations I assume they are intelligent younger or older adults who will seek counsel before jumping into anything. Maybe I am assuming too much. This may seem off topic but if you really think about it, it is not. Speaking to my pastor who was vocational director for my own diocese for over 30 years, about the proposed community which I feel God has put in my heart, ( and until now I have not been told to cease and desist by any church authority, even though everything is not in place as one would like as it takes time, proving and lived reality) Father gave me this very sound counsel... and that was to be careful not to "put out the smoldering wick or crush the bruised reed..." My point being that possible something real true and lasting, could be hidden among all the human weaknesses inherent in Her approach. Father also told me to allow others to take little steps and learn from their mistakes. What may start out as only a broken or tiny little seed often needs only to be watered, encouraged gently in truth and be given time to grow. Gemma is on her own growth pattern as are we all. I would propose that it would be more effective and loving to gently point out the truth lovingly and allow her to seek her own truth slowly. I do not condone misrepresentation but have found that folks often say things that are not quite the truth when they feel under attack. It is a psychological fact that this often happens, It is called self preservation. I don't know about anyone else here.. but I AM one of the poorest of the poor and from my ow brokeness also prone to judge. I have to desist from that if I am to give any truth to what i say or do. Can we not have empathy and put ourselves in Gemma's place on how we would feel and react if all this negative feedback were coming at us? Truth without compassion is nothing more than cruelty and it is this i object too. I guess i feel i have been forgiven so much so many times by God .... who am i to pronounce my judgments on others... Yes there are time we all must Take a stand and make valid judgments in our lives about things, but let us also understand the human condition... we are all sinners and need of healing.... For those of you who can, please read between the lines. For it is hard for me to articulate this without injuring others. Tenderly, Indwelling Trinity (aka: Sister Emmanuel, HSMC-A) [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroswitha1943 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Whatever may be Gemma's inner intentions, the fact is that she has not been accurate about her undertakings. There is nothing that overrides that fact. It is important that people understand this. One cannot expect "positive feedback" when one has not been honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indwelling Trinity Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [quote name='Hroswitha1943' date='07 March 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1268008218' post='2068398'] Whatever may be Gemma's inner intentions, the fact is that she has not been accurate about her undertakings. There is nothing that overrides that fact. It is important that people understand this. One cannot expect "positive feedback" when one has not been honest. [/quote] I am not implying positive feedback in the face of dishonesty only compassionate. Laughing... holds out an olive branch:P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroswitha1943 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 March 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1268008556' post='2068401'] I am not implying positive feedback in the face of dishonesty only compassionate. Laughing... holds out an olive branch:P [/quote] I think we should direct our compassion toward those whose hopes have been exploited and who have been so misled. I only hope that it has not progressed to the point of a monetary scam and become a criminal matter. If Gemma is delusional, that is sad, but it would be irresponsible to let her toy with other people's lives. That is not even close to "compassion." That is hard-hearted irresponsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister_Laurel Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [[ All who are interested in the so-called "Cloister Outreach" should read Sr. Laurels' recent post on her blog on this subject: http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.c...proval-or.html I am glad that someone who is fully knowledgeable like Sr. Laurel has finally blown the whistle on the "Cloister Outreach" project. . . .]] One clarification. I am not fully knowledgeable. I have run into the founder of Cloisters Outreach on listserves I belong to and I have both agreed and disagreed with as well as challenged her, but I really do not know her, her motivations, etc. Neither have I addressed these, much less judged or impugned them. On the other hand, I do know many of the ins and outs of Canon 603 eremitical life and am sensitive to misuses of the canon which seem to me to demean the vocation itself. I also know that motivations aside, the assertions or claims made in regard to the canonist of the Diocese of Charlotte and the Bishop as well were patently untrue. They were not simply exaggerations. If Cloister Outreach is to do good or is of God, it cannot be founded on or perpetuated by means of untruths; thus if the person in question wants to build on truth I think she retains the chance to do that. One reason for clarifying the situation was concern that the abuses and misunderstandings of Canon 603 which were being fostered could in fact be the result of a particular canonist's own professional ineptness. (The question which recurred between several of us was, "How CAN she be supporting this, or supervising that, or turning a blind eye to the other thing? How can she be allowing her Bishop to accept these as edifying to the implementation of Canon 603 or consecrated life more generally?") [b]Happily that is not the case, and such concerns seem unfounded here.[/b][u][/u] Still, the claims made by Cloisters Outreach that this canonist was supervising the hermit/anchorite project on a step by step basis, the assertion that another class of would-be hermits would be begun as soon as permission was given (implying permission for and supervision of the first "Class) reflected detrimentally on her. It mattered little that her name was never used. Afterall, how many female hermit-canonists are there when Canon 603 perpetual professions in the US number fewer than 75 or so in the past 25 years? How many of those are in the Diocese of Charlotte? Those who deal with canonists, especially those who pay attention to canonists specializing (or particularly interested) in consecrated life, know precisely who is meant in these references. One person has characterized my actions as possibly indicating an agenda and being rooted in arrogance. Arrogance literally means taking or "arrogating" to oneself something one has no right to do. I would point out that this definition of arrogance fits the Cloister Outreach programs better than it fits mine, but also, that when public claims are made, and distortions of a particular vocation in the church are fostered about a life [i]I have a publicly vowed right and responsibility to represent[/i][u][/u], I don't believe it is arrogant of me to take on the issue within the limits of my own competence and lifestyle. Meanwhile, an agenda is an underlying program or plan, often ideological in nature. Thus, as regards an agenda, yes, I have one which involves the following elements: 1) protect the vulnerable and gullible whose desire to live religious or consecrated life makes them less objective about the Cloisters Outreach site and less inclined to verify the truth of its claims than they might otherwise ordinarily be, 2) set straight the matter of a canonist's reputation and question of her competence and prudence (to the very limited extent I am capable of doing so), and 3) witness to the reality and dignity of the eremitical vocation in the Church today, especially diocesan eremitism. It is both a wonderful, flexible, demanding, and relatively rare life vocation which is neither simply the same as living alone as an isolated person, nor is it a fallback or stopgap position to be latched onto by someone when a cenobitic "foundation" fails to be realized or someone discovers they are "not ready" for cenobitic life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) [quote name='MaterMisericordiae' date='08 March 2010 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1267997389' post='2068247'] I, too, have some concerns as well about the Cloisterite Foundation. I don't mean to dogpile and say stuff that has already been said, but it bothers me a little that all these new charisms are emerging when already established communities are dwindling in numbers. I think I would be less wary of the foundations if they started with more than just a group of people who had no experience in religious life. If you read the stories of founders and foundresses from the past, they had to deal with a great deal of negativity and went through many years of formation in other orders before even considering formation on their own. It also makes me wonder if it's possible that many are using this as a way to enter religious life even though they are not prepared for it or they have illnesses that preclude them from living life to the fullest. I wish Gemma well, but I am very cautious about this sort of thing. [/quote] [quote] It also makes me wonder if it's possible that many are using this as a way to enter religious life even though they are not prepared for it or they have illnesses that preclude them from [u]living life to the fullest[/u][/quote] Just a short comment on the above and off topic. I am not sure at all that you meant the above as it sounds. People ill or with disabilites can still live life to the full (depending I guess on how one defines "living life to the fullest") - perhaps they cannot live traditional religious life in community however. On this site and on other Catholic Discussion Sites I have noticed that sufferers of mental illness (I am one - Bipolar Disorder) and other types of disabilities are disappointed and saddened by an inability to enter traditional religious life, although I have noticed on the web that in the USA there are a couple of religious orders that embrace people with disabilities. In the main, however, people with disabilities are regarded as not candidates for religious life and this conveys to them a feeling of rejection and a frustration of what they perceive as their vocation. People with disabilities are not "rejects" in any way. It is sad that they can be perceived as such even unconsciously, and possibly even something that may need addressing in The Church since the sufferings of those with disabilities - and of many kinds - are invaluable to The Church when suffered in union with The Sufferings of Christ. Those who are ill or with disabilities are singularly drawn into the Sufferings of Christ in a unique manner. We used to call this the Apostolate of The Sick and research tells me it still exists here and there in various forms. People ill or with disabilities may not be able to enter traditional religious life due to those disabilities in many cases - but they can still live a life singularly devoted to Christ in some other form other than the traditional form of religious life in community. Having commented - apologies for being off topic. I too have long had personal misgivings about Gemma's projects, while I wish her well and every blessing and hope that The Holy Spirit knows something which I do not. Someone here posted Jesus words (quoting Isaias) "the smoking flax he will not quench, nor break the bruised reed" - we need to remember this - and to my mind Gemma has come across as certainly very sincere and a person of Faith, if her websites and information just might be in need of some amending/updating in order not to be misleading if Sr. Lauren's research is accurate. Blessings this Lent - Barb Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indwelling Trinity Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [quote name='Hroswitha1943' date='07 March 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1268010075' post='2068419'] I think we should direct our compassion toward those whose hopes have been exploited and who have been so misled. I only hope that it has not progressed to the point of a monetary scam and become a criminal matter. If Gemma is delusional, that is sad, but it would be irresponsible to let her toy with other people's lives. That is not even close to "compassion." That is hard-hearted irresponsibility. [/quote] Well we don't know for sure if others hopes have been exploited and I have not heard her ever mention a word about money. I pray such is not the case for that is a very painful experience. Funny thing is it can happen on both sides of the equation.... I had a vocation sent to me from another Carmelite nun, who was a professional manipulator par excellance; needless to say I needed unguentine and bandages for a while given all the misinformation she gave not only to myself, local pastors, neighbors and the diocese, that it caused a veritable mess even as diligently as I tried to discern the truth of what was really going on. With her being from another country only made it more difficult to track down the truth. She even had local priests duped for a while until I finally was able to track down a former superior of hers. So I have learned to be more careful of discerners also. But my posts were not meant to be an apologetic for any one individual but only a caution to see more than one side of the equation. Sighs I find this all so very disheartening conversation ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) General comment: People do indeed have a right to be set straight if they are being misinformed and it is an obligation to do so, but to stop short, I think, of questioning integrity unless there is clear evidence that the person has deliberately set out to actually misinform and it is necessary to reveal this for some just reason. The object of the whole exercise should be to set the information straight for the benefit of others perhpas by a direct and private approach to the person concerned at least initially giving that person the opportunity to set things straight themselves - and this may have been done. I have not really been following all this in a focused manner and am making a general comment not an accusation. http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=detraction&xsubmit=Search&s=SS While the above link will link to the CCC on "Detraction" - again, I am not making any sort of accusations - even indirectly, but hoping to alert awareness to detraction and the terms that define it. Blessings this Lent - Barb Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='08 March 2010 - 07:45 AM' timestamp='1267996538' post='2068239'] Edited Post If the Holy spirit is at work you will tell by its fruits... if the fruit are goodness,peace, charity, humility,truth, and love, you can be pretty sure God's hand is there somewhere... if it only makes for confusion, distrust, and dissension... well it make me wonder where that spirit is coming from. Indwelling Trinity [/quote] Good comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) Quoting from this Post: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103348&view=findpost&p=2068364 [quote]Father also told me to allow others to take little steps and learn from their mistakes. What may start out as only a broken or tiny little seed often needs only to be watered, [b]encouraged gently in truth and be given time to grow[/b]. Gemma is on her own growth pattern [b]as are we all[/b]. I would propose that it would be more effective and loving to gently point out the truth lovingly and allow her to seek her own truth slowly. I do not condone misrepresentation but have found that folks often say things that are not quite the truth when they feel under attack. It is a psychological fact that this often happens, It is called self preservation. I don't know about anyone else here.. but [b]I AM one of the poorest of the poor and from my ow brokeness also prone to judge. I have to desist from that if I am to give any truth to what i say or do.[/b] Can we not have empathy and put ourselves in Gemma's place on [b]how we would feel and react if all this negative feedback were coming at us[/b]? [b]Truth without compassion is nothing more than cruelty and it is this i object too. I guess i feel i have been forgiven so much so many times by God .... who am i to pronounce my judgments on others... Yes there are time we all must Take a stand and make valid judgments in our lives about things, but let us also understand the human condition... we are all sinners and need of healing.... For those of you who can, please read between the lines. For it is hard for me to articulate this without injuring others.[/b][/quote] Insightful comments with empathy. Certainly Gemma needs to "seek her own truth slowly" but also for her to be very aware that the Cloisterite websites are the undertaking of the guidance of other souls and this is a very serious matter(at least I think guidance of other souls in some instances - quite some time since I perused the site) . I say this only in the interests and hope that whatever is made public on the Cloisterite websites is always the most accurate of information and fully insightful of any responsibilities and accountabilities undertaken and done with the appropriate guidance all the way - and understanding that this is what is in question in this thread or concluded from this thread. Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlySunshine Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [quote name='BarbaraTherese' date='07 March 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1268010563' post='2068429'] Just a short comment on the above and off topic. I am not sure at all that you meant the above as it sounds. People ill or with disabilites can still live life to the full (depending I guess on how one defines "living life to the fullest") - perhaps they cannot live traditional religious life in community however. On this site and on other Catholic Discussion Sites I have noticed that sufferers of mental illness (I am one - Bipolar Disorder) and other types of disabilities are disappointed and saddened by an inability to enter traditional religious life, although I have noticed on the web that in the USA there are a couple of religious orders that embrace people with disabilities. In the main, however, people with disabilities are regarded as not candidates for religious life and this conveys to them a feeling of rejection and a frustration of what they perceive as their vocation. People with disabilities are not "rejects" in any way. It is sad that they can be perceived as such even unconsciously, and possibly even something that may need addressing in The Church since the sufferings of those with disabilities - and of many kinds - are invaluable to The Church when suffered in union with The Sufferings of Christ. Those who are ill or with disabilities are singularly drawn into the Sufferings of Christ in a unique manner. We used to call this the Apostolate of The Sick and research tells me it still exists here and there in various forms. People ill or with disabilities may not be able to enter traditional religious life due to those disabilities in many cases - but they can still live a life singularly devoted to Christ in some other form other than the traditional form of religious life in community. Having commented - apologies for being off topic. I too have long had personal misgivings about Gemma's projects, while I wish her well and every blessing and hope that The Holy Spirit knows something which I do not. Someone here posted Jesus words (quoting Isaias) "the smoking flax he will not quench, nor break the bruised reed" - we need to remember this - and to my mind Gemma has come across as certainly very sincere and a person of Faith, if her websites and information just might be in need of some amending/updating in order not to be misleading if Sr. Lauren's research is accurate. Blessings this Lent - Barb [/quote] I do not mean mental illnesses like depression and such as I am a recovering patient from depression and for a time, I believed I had a vocation to religious life. However, at this point in my life, I am focusing on other tasks at hand as the calling seems to have disappeared for a time. I don't believe at all that those who have mental illnesses are rejects in any way. But it does make living religious life more difficult as I have been told by numerous vocation directors. Whether or not one could live the life depends on the mental threshold of the individual and the particular community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) quote name='MaterMisericordiae' [quote]I do not mean mental illnesses like depression and such as I am a recovering patient from depression and for a time, I believed I had a vocation to religious life. However, at this point in my life, I am focusing on other tasks at hand as the calling seems to have disappeared for a time. I don't believe at all that those who have mental illnesses are rejects in any way. [/quote] Apologies - I was commenting on this: "It also makes me wonder if it's possible that many are using this as a way to enter religious life even though they are not prepared for it or they have illnesses that preclude them from living life to the fullest"...........I suspected that you may have meant "living THE life to the fullest" (meaning religious life) - for certainly sufferers of MI and disability can still live life to the full (depending probably on how one defines a full life). Some do consider sufferers of MI in particular to be somehow "rejects" denied by God religious life (and God is allowing to be in place certain impediments to RL in most instances of RL) as some sort of an indictment of them. Not so. Rather and in the case of my own illness (and for one point only), I look upon it as God directing me into a certain direction by denying me other directions - and through the presence of Bipolar and certain restrictions applying within religious congregations. I do not look upon Bipolar as God denying me anything (negative mental state) - rather directing me through an action of His Permissive Will (Bipolar) in a certain direction (positive mental state). If I had my own way, I would probably be in the strictest contemplative enclosed community that would have me! LOL [quote] But it does make living religious life more difficult as I have been told by numerous vocation directors. Whether or not one could live the life depends on the mental threshold of the individual and the particular community. [/quote] I agree. Certainly mental strength is needed for religious life and very often those who suffer some form of MI simply do not have this strength and the life may well break them or cause disturbance to others - or both. The point I meant to convey in my comments is that sufferers of MI and disabilities have something to offer and a ministry of their own by virtue of their MI or disability per se - and can still give themselves and their lives totally to Christ but not probably in traditional religious life in community - and life in community is a mark of religious life per se as currently defined. General Comment: Sufferers of MI and any disability or illness are not their MI, disability or illness. It is something that they bear, suffer or endure. [quote] I am focusing on other tasks at hand as the calling seems to have disappeared for a time[/quote] God richly bless your discernings and tasks at hand. I hope and pray that all traces of depression will very quickly be in the past - depression is a most difficult burden.... and that the depression having passed completely that you may feel a desire to reconsider religious life. God bless! BLessings this Lent - Barb Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indwelling Trinity Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [quote name='BarbaraTherese' date='07 March 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1268015896' post='2068487'] Quoting from this Post: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103348&view=findpost&p=2068364"]http://www.phatmass....dpost&p=2068364[/url] Insightful comments with empathy. Certainly Gemma needs to "seek her own truth slowly" but also for her to be very aware that the Cloisterite websites are the undertaking of the guidance of other souls and this is a very serious matter(at least I think guidance of other souls in some instances - quite some time since I perused the site) . I say this only in the interests and hope that whatever is made public on the Cloisterite websites is always the most accurate of information and fully insightful of any responsibilities and accountabilities undertaken and done with the appropriate guidance all the way - and understanding that this is what is in question in this thread or concluded from this thread. [/quote] I agree fully with you. Accountability in the care of souls is of utmost importance as each is precious and unique to be handled with extreme care. Indwelling Trinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 [quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='08 March 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1268026892' post='2068636'] I agree fully with you. Accountability in the care of souls is of utmost importance as each is precious and unique to be handled with extreme care. Indwelling Trinity [/quote] God bless! - Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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