HisChild Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='Saint Therese' date='07 March 2010 - 07:58 AM' timestamp='1267973935' post='2068009'] I think everyone on here should read this blog post. I've also shared these concerns, and have suggested that someone from Phatmass research the legitmacy of Gemma's statements here, if for no other reason, as Sr. Lauren said, for concern about legitimate vocations that may be lead astray. In addition, I think that the "Freelance Priests" thread also falls under this category. I don't understand why it was allowed. It seems that it might be more prudent for guidelines to be more strict as far as content in Vocation Station because of the above stated reason. [/quote] I think the last time someone posted on the Cloister Outreach with a critical eye, some poster (who I believe was new) came on here lambasting us and how uncharitable we all were for wondering the legitimacy of such a thing when it was such a GOOD thing, and it was no wonder why many left VS etc etc. So for a while no one said anything, in part because of that. I'm glad it's being brought up again, if for nothing else but to revisit these legitimate concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I remember that thread. I still think that someone should have checked on this a long time ago. In fact, I've suggested it. I think it would be interesting to get Gemma's take on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='Saint Therese' date='07 March 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1267973935' post='2068009'] It seems that it might be more prudent for guidelines to be more strict as far as content in Vocation Station because of the above stated reason. [/quote] I'm new here, but I know a lot about vocations (having worked extensively with the Vocation Directress when I was in religious life) and I absolutely agree with this statement. The Church looks upon new foundations, ESPECIALLY those "outside the box" very, very, very cautiously. I think we need to take the same approach here. This isn't to say that the people involved with "Cloister Outreach" don't have good intentions, but their intentions are certainly misdirected or at least misinformed, and I think it's a good exercise of holy prudence for us to be able to recognize such things for what they are. It's part of maturity in discernment, and it's a grace for which we all should pray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChild Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Yes, it would be interesting. She hasn't been on here in almost 3 months, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='HisChild' date='07 March 2010 - 11:19 AM' timestamp='1267975151' post='2068017'] I think the last time someone posted on the Cloister Outreach with a critical eye, some poster (who I believe was new) came on here lambasting us and how uncharitable we all were for wondering the legitimacy of such a thing when it was such a GOOD thing, and it was no wonder why many left VS etc etc. So for a while no one said anything, in part because of that. [/quote] Of course no one wants to be labeled as "uncharitable," and I agree, that that is the reason many of these things are proliferated. Just from looking at the website, the entire establishment looks like a canonical nightmare. To those who say it's uncharitable, I say it's not uncharitable to look at things with God-given reason and prudence. When people's faith and vocations are in danger, it is a charity in and of itself to look at these things critically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Well, charity isn't about being "nice", necessarily. I wonder how charitable it would be to not make people aware that something that at leas [i]seems[/i] to be genuine isn't, and the result being that possibly many genuine vocations are sidetracked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChild Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='CherieMadame' date='07 March 2010 - 08:31 AM' timestamp='1267975869' post='2068023'] Of course no one wants to be labeled as "uncharitable," and I agree, that that is the reason many of these things are proliferated. Just from looking at the website, the entire establishment looks like a canonical nightmare. To those who say it's uncharitable, I say it's not uncharitable to look at things with God-given reason and prudence. When people's faith and vocations are in danger, it is a charity in and of itself to look at these things critically. [/quote] [quote name='Saint Therese' date='07 March 2010 - 08:36 AM' timestamp='1267976170' post='2068024'] Well, charity isn't about being "nice", necessarily. I wonder how charitable it would be to not make people aware that something that at leas [i]seems[/i] to be genuine isn't, and the result being that possibly many genuine vocations are sidetracked? [/quote] Exactly, ST. I don't like how some people misuse being 'charitable'. Because some disguise it as nothing more than not saying anything that can be construed as negative. Not so. In Scripture we read in MT 18:15-17 - “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. It is indeed charity to offer correction if it could potentially harm the body of Christ. No one, I think, is of the mind that these people cannot gather online for their spiritual advancement and possible holiness. But to state the Church is supporting the endeavor? Perhaps not such a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='Saint Therese' date='07 March 2010 - 11:36 AM' timestamp='1267976170' post='2068024'] Well, charity isn't about being "nice", necessarily. I wonder how charitable it would be to not make people aware that something that at leas [i]seems[/i] to be genuine isn't, and the result being that possibly many genuine vocations are sidetracked? [/quote] Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indwelling Trinity Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I cannot comment on the veracity of all that has been said... but only caution that there are two sides to every story and sometimes what may look to be an impartial judgment in reality may not be. Having had experience with both parties in the past, especially on other sites... I can say that there may be agenda's on both sides. especially when there is bad blood between the two even though it may never be openly admitted I do agree with other who have posted that the most prudent thing to do is to ask questions and get verifiable answers before buying so to say. This is just common sense. I know first hand that wading through the red tape involved in starting a community is immense and oft times very beauacratical in nature. It is one thing to to question veracity of another... it is another thing to appoint oneself as a veritable vigilante patrol over something that is not even one's concern. The process of starting a community is neither easy, painless, or quick and I will tell you Satan will dogg it very step of the way both by people within and outside of the church. It must be remembered that potential founders or foundresses are for the most part doing it for the first time and so we do make mistakes like everyone else.... I have found that the best way to go is by obedience even though there is latitude in the beginnings of a private association of the faithful. I rather be up front with the Bishop or Vicar or Father provincial etc.. than to drop a surprise on them down the road. I also choose to put a disclaimer so to say so that others will know where the proposed community stands. This is just caution on my part both for myself and those who may be interested in becoming a part of this endeavor. It is my responsibility as best as I can to see that others wishing to come are not burnt in the process. Especially when many of then have already been burnt by already established communities for whatever reasons. This is only charity and justice. In the end... the founding of a community is God's work... "If the Lord does not build a house in vain do the builders labor".... on the other hand of the equation..... "Judge not lest ye too be judged".... and if one does not know the whole picture one risks judging too harshly and may in fact be an instrument; albeit unwittingly, in putting obstacles in the way of what may actually be the work of God in progress even with all its false starts in learning how to wade through the process. This is not an apologetic for either side... but maybe more humility and charity and less arrogance would best be in order before coming to a final judgment on others. I react strongly because this topic is not new and in the past has generated more heat than light. Maybe it does not belong on vocation station but on a debate table somewhere else. Those who are discerning... ask questions openly and look for truthful answers, you deserve that.... Those not discerning i would suggest not interfering in order to prove ones own ascendancy or political correctness, or validate ones own legitimacy over others by demanding from others what you have no right too. My own Orders roots had no identifiable founder... they were penitents who lived in the desert, adopted a common dress and life style and only after almost twenty years went to the Patriarch for formal approval and yet they are one of the largest order on the church today. If the Holy spirit is at work you will tell by its fruits... if the fruit are goodness,peace, charity, humility,truth, and love, you can be pretty sure God's hand is there somewhere... if it only makes for confusion, distrust, and dissension... well it make me wonder where that spirit is coming from. Indwelling Trinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 I think this is an appropriate forum for this topic, since the subject has posted extensively here about vocations in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlySunshine Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='nunsense' date='07 March 2010 - 05:58 AM' timestamp='1267959480' post='2067965'] Gemma is a wonderful person and I love her very much but I have been worried for a long time about the whole Cloisterite project simply because it can distract people who might have real vocations from looking into this while they wait for her communities (plural) to take off. In all charity, I wish her well, but I do believe that she needs a disclaimer on her site to the effect that all of her communities are still in the ideas stage and not one of them is ready for vocations yet. If I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected, but it sounds like Sr Laurel did the research. [/quote] I, too, have some concerns as well about the Cloisterite Foundation. I don't mean to dogpile and say stuff that has already been said, but it bothers me a little that all these new charisms are emerging when already established communities are dwindling in numbers. I think I would be less wary of the foundations if they started with more than just a group of people who had no experience in religious life. If you read the stories of founders and foundresses from the past, they had to deal with a great deal of negativity and went through many years of formation in other orders before even considering formation on their own. It also makes me wonder if it's possible that many are using this as a way to enter religious life even though they are not prepared for it or they have illnesses that preclude them from living life to the fullest. I wish Gemma well, but I am very cautious about this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroswitha1943 Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 March 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1267996538' post='2068239'] I cannot comment on the veracity of all that has been said... but only caution that there are two sides to every story and sometimes what may look to be an impartial judgment in reality may not be. Having had experience with both parties in the past, especially on other sites... I can say that there may be agenda's on both sides. especially when there is bad blood between the two even though it may never be openly admitted I do agree with other who have posted that the most prudent thing to do is to ask questions and get verifiable answers before buying so to say. This is just common sense. I know first hand that wading through the red tape involved in starting a community is immense and oft times very beauacratical in nature. It is one thing to to question veracity of another... it is another thing to appoint oneself as a veritable vigilante patrol over something that is not even one's concern. The process of starting a community is neither easy, painless, or quick and I will tell you Satan will dogg it very step of the way both by people within and outside of the church. It must be remembered that potential founders or foundresses are for the most part doing it for the first time and so we do make mistakes like everyone else.... I have found that the best way to go is by obedience even though there is latitude in the beginnings of a private association of the faithful. I rather be up front with the Bishop or Vicar or Father provincial etc.. than to drop a surprise on them down the road. I also choose to put a disclaimer so to say so that others will know where the proposed community stands. This is just caution on my part both for myself and those who may be interested in becoming a part of this endeavor. It is my responsibility as best as I can to see that others wishing to come are not burnt in the process. Especially when many of then have already been burnt by already established communities for whatever reasons. This is only charity and justice. In the end... the founding of a community is God's work... "If the Lord does not build a house in vain do the builders labor".... on the other hand of the equation..... "Judge not lest ye too be judged".... and if one does not know the whole picture one risks judging too harshly and may in fact be an instrument; albeit unwittingly, in putting obstacles in the way of what may actually be the work of God in progress even with all its false starts in learning how to wade through the process. This is not an apologetic for either side... but maybe more humility and charity and less arrogance would best be in order before coming to a final judgment on others. I react strongly because this topic is not new and in the past has generated more heat than light. Maybe it does not belong on vocation station but on a debate table somewhere else. Those who are discerning... ask questions openly and look for truthful answers, you deserve that.... Those not discerning i would suggest not interfering in order to prove ones own ascendancy or political correctness, or validate ones own legitimacy over others by demanding from others what you have no right too. My own Orders roots had no identifiable founder... they were penitents who lived in the desert, adopted a common dress and life style and only after almost twenty years went to the Patriarch for formal approval and yet they are one of the largest order on the church today. If the Holy spirit is at work you will tell by its fruits... if the fruit are goodness,peace, charity, humility,truth, and love, you can be pretty sure God's hand is there somewhere... if it only makes for confusion, distrust, and dissension... well it make me wonder where that spirit is coming from. Indwelling Trinity [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroswitha1943 Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 Sister Emmanuel, What could be the agenda of someone who simply points out misinformation? A thing is true or not. In Gemma's ( or Amy's) case, misinformation has been given and people are being misled. I, personally, spoke to the sister that Amy claims is guiding her "projects," and the sister says that she has nothing to do with them and the Diocese does not support them. It's that simple. Nothing you said in your post has any bearing on this simple fact. People have a right to know when they are being misinformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='HisChild' date='07 March 2010 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1267973429' post='2068007'] Glory to Jesus Christ! tnavarro, I understood your posts and their intentions. Not to worry. This group(s) of the Cloister Outreach have been a concern of yours, especially since on the groups' website it states that it has ecclesial support, when in fact, as SrLaurel pointed out, it does not. You're also concerned that some of these groups proclaim they are not in the idea stage but have in fact dressed up in habits and have religious names, which may be misleading since they don't have the support of the bishop as the site proclaims. nunsense, I also see where he would be confused by your post #8, because in it you clearly state 'since you obviously don't agree with her' (I cannot see how you drew that conclusion). Then, in #13, you're confused by his being saddened? It might be good of you to go back and read the flow of this thread again. You might understand his confusion then. I think his intentions by posting both blog and quotes from the CO site are in congruence. In Christ, HC [/quote] thank u HisChild for understanding what I sm trying to say! u'r the best! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted March 7, 2010 Author Share Posted March 7, 2010 [quote name='HisChild' date='08 March 2010 - 12:19 AM' timestamp='1267975151' post='2068017'] I think the last time someone posted on the Cloister Outreach with a critical eye, some poster (who I believe was new) came on here lambasting us and how uncharitable we all were for wondering the legitimacy of such a thing when it was such a GOOD thing, and it was no wonder why many left VS etc etc. So for a while no one said anything, in part because of that. I'm glad it's being brought up again, if for nothing else but to revisit these legitimate concerns. [/quote] are you refering to this link: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99908&view=&hl=cloisters&fromsearch=1 or this one: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=97412&view=&hl=cloisters&fromsearch=1 or this one? http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=80569&view=&hl=cloisters&fromsearch=1 I am one of the phatmasser who has been so "critical" of her website. why should she go on without the bishop's permission? she says before that it isn't necessary to obtain bishop's permission first. and why would she say she is supported by her hermit canonist, when in fact she is not? She always refers to her hermit canonist whenever she answers questions. Of course, this makes her answers appear credible and who could ever argue with a canonist? we have received replies "don't bother us buy asking questions. if u r not interested in our foundation then go away." but i think people have the right to know since we are one body isn't it. i agree that charity isn't about being nice. it's about correcting faults, so that we can advance as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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