Ashley And Brother Adam Only

[Ashley]

I have been looking over the CCC (Catechism of the Catolic Church), to find out "from the horse's mouth" what Catholics believe. Here we go.

The Bible says that Mary had other children with Joseph, very plainly:

"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? Matthew 13:55

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." Mark 6:3

The Apostle paul:


"But other of the apostles saw I none, [b]save James the Lord's brother[/b]." Galatians 1:19


This is from the Catechism:


"The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, 'brothers of Jesus,' are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ..." #500

"Mary remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin." #510


Between God's Word and the CCC (something made by men) I chose God's Word.

And I don't understand how anyone could do otherwise.

[Brother Adam]

Hi Ashley,

Great question!

To explain the Catholic position on this, when it seems they are flat out denying God's Word, we have to consider one of the big areas of biblical interpretation: [b]culture[/b].

I will specifically address the two verses you choose to signify that Jesus may have had half-brothers.

[quote]"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? Matthew 13:55

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." Mark 6:3 [/quote]

The culture we are dealing with here is the Hebrew culture, Jesus' culture. Hebrews had special customs and words to deal with matters relating to ones family. Such as, who was legally your family? What did you call certian members of your family? And so forth.

Everything operated differently back then. Ever notice how King Solomon had 100's of wives and concubines? Never is this practice condemned in the Old Covenant. But in the New Covenant we are married into Christ and only have one spouse. So for now though, we are dealing with the Old Covenant. They did a lot of strange things.

The first writing I want to share with you from a Catholic is by Dr. Scott Hahn who spent 23 years as Protestant minister and now runs the St. Peter and Paul Biblical Center.

[quote]He writes: "[Several] New Testament passages refer to Jesus' "brethren." We find in Saitn Mark's gospel for example: "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas, and Simon, and are not His sisters here with us?" (6:3)...

This is virtually a non-issue for anyone who has a familiarity with Hebrew customs. The Hebrew word for "brother" is a inclusive term, applying to cousin as well...To a Jew of Jesus' time, one's cousin was one's brother. This familial principle applied in other Semitic languages as well, such as Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke. Furthermore, precisely because Jesus was an only child, His cousins would even assume the legal status of siblings for Him, as they were His nearest relative." (Hail, Holy Queen, 104)[/quote]

Notice next who Jesus gives his mother to when he is on the cross- not anyone who was called "brother" at the time, but the disciple John. In the Hebrew culture, if Jesus had living relatives, this would be a grave insult. So we have to ask why Jesus would choose a disciple and then refer to his mother as "woman"? We know Jesus isn't insulting his mother calling her a "woman" instead of "mother" in the passage, because Jesus is incapable of sin. Catholics believe there is a connection to Eve, when Adam refered to her as "woman".

But moving beyond that, there is the question of Joseph and Mary's marriage. As we have discussed marriage operated differently in the Hebrew culture than it does for us today. Even if Mary and Joseph never consumated their marraige- that is have sexual intercourse, that does not mean that their marraige is not valid. For instance, a male who loses his sexual organ in an accident could still get married though he could never consumate his marraige with his wife.

Catholics believe that Mary was given to Joseph and that Joseph acted as a gaurdian to Mary. It is undisputed that Joseph had died before Jesus died on the cross. Where in, instead of handing Mary to living relatives (his cousins) he hands Mary to the Church (directly to John).

Some also bring up the word "until" as a problem. That is "Mary and Joseph did not have relations until Jesus was born". The Catholic response would be "But Jesus said he was going to be with us until the end of the age. Does that mean he woudl abandon us after the end of the age?". I don't think our conclusion can rest on that word.

Finally, I would notice Mary's reaction to the angel when she said she was going to bear a son, Jesus. She didn't say "Oh, wow, Joseph and I are going to have a son". She said, surprised "How can this be?" My question to you to explore is, why was Mary surprised that she would give birth to a child, if she planned on having relations with Joseph in the future? By remaining a virgin and becoming the person through whom life (Jesus) comes into the world, Mary would remove all doubt that Jesus was Joseph and Mary's biological child.

I hope this wasn't too lengthy, but that is a good introduction to why Catholic's believe in Mary's virginity. They certianly don't do it to spite God's Word, but they believe this doctrine is accurate in light of Hebrew culture and the harmony of the Bible as a whole.

I look forward to any questions you may have.

Bro. Adam

[Ashley]

I need some time to ponder that information.

Next one (this is from the CCC):

"Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." #969

OK, that is completely against scripture.

Advocate: "...if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" 1 John 2:1


Helper: "Behold, God is mine helper..." Psalm 54:4

"So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me." Hebrews 13:6

"Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all." Psalm 34:19


Benefactress: The Bible calls NO ONE a "benefactor" or "benefactress"


Mediator:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5

"And for this cause he (Christ) is the mediator of the new testament..." Hebrews 9:15



? ?

[Ashley]

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands... but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:" Hebrews 9:24

"Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25


Forgot that.

[Brother Adam]

Hi Ashley,

[quote]I need some time to ponder that information.[/quote]

kewl. Take your time. No rush.

Man I have so much information I can share it is hard to know just where to begin!

[quote]"Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." #969

OK, that is completely against scripture. [/quote]

Ok, I have to share an experience I had in high school. In my Advanced Placement English class we started studing Shakespeare. Until Shakespeare I was at the head of my class. Straight A's across the board. When I opened up "The Tempest" I saw words, and they were English words, I mean, I could have sworn that they were. But none of it made any sense to me. You mine as well have handed me a book written in Spanish, because it was taking me no where. After that we read Beowulf, and even older text. Half the words I could swear didn't even look like English!

The point of all that is that is as we go futher back in time, there is more and more we have to take into account to understand what is going on. Ol' William isn't even a thousand years old yet. But some texts in the Bible are over 5,000 years old. It's pretty hard to approach them and just read it at face value. This is a similiar problem we run into with some of the Catholic writings and teachings. They are in a way "Stuck in the past". Just like "brother" can very easily refer to one's biological cousin in the Bible, some words in Catholic doctrine cannot always be taken at face value.

Let's start with the word "Advocate". In the "Hail, Holy Queen" prayer of the rosary Catholics say "turn then most gracious advocate". To understand this I want to turn our attention two one place in the New Testament and one place in the Old Testament.

First, the wedding of Cana

John 2:1-5
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: [2] And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. [3] And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. [4] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. [5] His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

Woah! Jesus again calls His mother “Woman”! We know that it is not to signify spite or insult as Jesus can’t sin, it must mean something else. Just like if we were to watch the crucifixion take place, there is more to it than a prophet being put to death, there is more to it than Jesus getting annoyed with His mother. Think about this: God, in the flesh is actually submitting to the will of His mother- despite that “his hour has not yet come”. Jesus did not intend his first miracle for this time, yet, in his first miracle he submits His power to His mother! Wow!

This brings us to the next verse:

1 Kings 2:17-19
And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife. [18] And Bath-sheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.
[19] [b]Bath-sheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand. [/b]

In the culture we are dealing with, the Hebrew culture, often times it was actually the king’s mother who became queen. And in this verse we see that Bath-sheba became an advocate for someone else and went to the king.

Jesus becomes the King of kings. Because Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecy written about Him, he becomes a king in the same line as king David. Catholics believe that Mary becomes an advocate for them. Jesus mom, like Queen Bath-sheba, becomes queen. She doesn’t become a “god” though. She is only “blessed among woman”, but still infinitely below divine. She also is saved by God’s grace alone.

So the first question is: Are those in heaven alive or dead and do they know what goes on in heaven? If they can and do (remember the Transfiguration), then can we ask for intercession from the saints (like you ask your friends to pray for you?).

Rev. 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are [b]the prayers of saints.[/b]

Catholics believe Mary was given to the disciples as a spiritual mother, and through the example of the wedding of Cana, we can go to Mary and ask for her to be an advocate for us to Jesus. Such is the essence of the whole Rosary: To focus on Jesus. But that is another topic!

-------


This explanation should take care of the next two titles- which brings us to Mediatrix.

Mediatrix does not mean “mediator between God and man” in the sense of the role Jesus fulfills. Mary can’t save you. Only Jesus can save you. When the Bible says Jesus is our one mediator between God and man, it is referring to Jesus’ role as the paschal lamb. Every year at Passover the High Priest would offer a sacrifice for the sins of the people using an unblemished lamb. Unfortunately the priest was not a perfect person. Jesus Christ offered himself as the Paschal lamb, becoming the perfect sacrifice for sin, and allowing all of us the opportunity to enter into the New Covenant. At the Lord’s Supper on the day of the Passover Jesus does this:

Luke 22:19-20
[19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Mary can never fulfill this role of being the one covenantal mediator between God and man, as the Bible refers to Jesus as. That is not what Catholics intend “Mediatrix” to be taken as. The following should help explain it. It comes from the Second Vatican Council. The 21st Council of the Catholic Church:

"Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith."(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her "the Mother of the living,"(8*) and still more often they say: "death through Eve, life through Mary."(9*))" - Lumen Gentium (Second Vatican Council)

This is the essence of Mary as a person who participated in God’s plan of salvation in a special way. She brought life into the world- that is Jesus, who is life and light among men. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary’s only goal as a spiritual mother to all disciples is to point to her Son, Jesus.

I’m sure that this gives you more than enough to think about so I’ll stop there for tonight. I look forward to your comments. Let me know if anything isn’t clear.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

[Ashley]

Thank you. Wile I think about that post, here’s another question for you:



Source of Holiness?



These beliefs are not based on scripture (really are not)...



"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things.” #966 (CCC)





"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." Jeremiah 7:18





I think that Catholics would be fascinated by a study of the many false religions which have worshipped a "Queen of heaven." Given that fact, Catholicism's insistence that God gave Mary a name so often used by false goddesses is remarkable, I think…





And who should be exalted anyway?



"Be thou exalted, O God, above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth." Psalm 57:5

"...thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all." 1 Chronicles 29:11

"...let the God of my salvation be exalted." Psalm 18:46

"Be thou exalted, LORD, in thine own strength..." Psalm 21:13

"Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." Psalm 46:10

"...the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted." Psalm 47:9

"The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high..." Isaiah 33:5







Catholicism insists that the Lord elevated Mary to the rank of "Queen of all things." Yet, the Bible proclaims that worshipping a "Queen of heaven" provokes God to anger.

Where will you place your trust, in the traditions of men, or the Word of God?

“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him (Jesus), and given him a name which is above every name..." Philippians 2:9-11

[dUSt]

[quote name='Ashley' date='Apr 13 2004, 03:08 PM'] Catholicism insists that the Lord elevated Mary to the rank of "Queen of all things." Yet, the Bible proclaims that worshipping a "Queen of heaven" provokes God to anger. [/quote]
Ashley,

Catholics do not worship Mary. I think a good first step would be to understand what the Church teaches--then we can get into debating whether it is true or not.

God bless.

[Brother Adam]

Ashley, I have been showing you so far that things cannot be taken at face value. So I have to ask before I answer your questions:

Are these questions coming from you- or are you getting them from another forum? Are you really taking in what I'm writing and learning from it, and if so do you agree with what I'm writing or do you have specific questions relating to what I wrote?

[Brother Adam]

Hey bub, your not allowed to post on this thread.

It says Ashley and Adam only. Kindly remove yourself. lol.

[Ashley]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 13 2004, 03:49 PM'] Ashley, I have been showing you so far that things cannot be taken at face value. So I have to ask before I answer your questions:

Are these questions coming from you- or are you getting them from another forum? Are you really taking in what I'm writing and learning from it, and if so do you agree with what I'm writing or do you have specific questions relating to what I wrote? [/quote]
Brother Adam:

Contrary to what many people have been saying, I really am interested in learning what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Yet I have a ton of objections, which may be misconceptions. I do get some scripture and points from other websites but only because I have heard them before from different people (including the two pastors of my church) AND because I can see their point and want to know what the response would be.

If your question is "Do you get all the anti-Catholic Church propaganda there is on the net and post it here for fun?" then the answer is no.

[Ashley]

Getting this posted farther up.

[Brother Adam]

Ashley,

I’m glad to see that you are still here after the argument that broke out. Individual Catholics most certainly do not speak for the Catholic Church as a whole. Which is why I say all the more that you should always verify anything I tell you

"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things.” #966 (CCC)

The Trinity is not explicitly written out in the Bible.
Either is Once Saved Always Saved.
Either is “Faith Alone”
Either is “Sola Scriptura.
Either is the “Age of Reason”

What I want you to understand here is that the Bible is not a doctrinal treatise. It is the inspired revelation of God to his people. This is why we have pastors to interpret the Bible. Most importantly though, this is why we have been given the Church. Protestants say that the “church” is invisible. You cannot see the church in any form. It is just “who ever actually believes in God and has Jesus as their Savior.”

I’m sorry, but this isn’t the picture of the Church I see in the Bible. I see Jesus giving the keys to the kingdom to Peter, I see the Apostles visibly leading the Church. I see Jesus telling Peter to feed his sheep. I see Jesus telling the Apostles whatever they bind and loose on earth will be literally bound and loosed in heaven. I see Jesus praying for unity among Christians. I see the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost. I see only one faith and one baptism in the early Church. And I see the Apostle Paul declaring the church the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth” or which “the gates of hell shall never prevail against.

The Protestant churches are not united, do not have overly similar doctrine, and many churches have degraded moral values akin to the world and Satan.

Is there a “queen” figure in the Bible that is condemned? Yes. Are there angels that are condemned? Yes. Are there angels that are glorified with God? Yes. Are their evil men? Yes. Are there holy men of God? Yes. Because Satan’s goal is to set up a counterfeit religion that looks and feels like genuine Christianity. The key difference in our case is that Catholics do not worship Mary in any way. They do not make sacrifices to Mary and they do not give adoration to Mary. They are simply devoted to their spiritual mother.

The next question: Does the Lord exalt Mary? The word exalt does not = worship. The angel Gabriel declared Mary “Blessed among woman”. That means God considers Mary blessed among woman. She is given a higher role and has a special place in the plan of redemption. There is nothing wrong with this.

Is God offended if you ask a friend to pray for you instead of just focusing all your time on praying to God? Of course not. Love shares. And by being a Christian you are sharing in the family of God.

[Ashley]

Thank you.

I just don't seem to understand why Catholics would pray to Mary (The "Hail Mary" I believe it is called ) instead of directly to the Father as Jesus Christ our Savior taught us.

Also, what do you think of the Hail Mary? Is it based ons scripture/doesn't it take the glory from God and give it to Mary, in a way?

[Brother Adam]

[quote]I just don't seem to understand why Catholics would pray to Mary (The "Hail Mary" I believe it is called  ) instead of directly to the Father as Jesus Christ our Savior taught us.[/quote]

I'd like to use an analogy if I can. Let's say Jane and John get married. For the first year of their marraige Jane and John pay total attention to each other. They say "I love you" and "You mean everything to me" and "your my soul mate" to each other everyday. They spend time with each other and do things for each other.

After a year though, Baby Jimmy comes into the world. Jane starts to tell her baby "I love you" and "You mean the world to me". She spends a lot of time with the baby and nurtures it.

My question to you is: Should John get angry since Jane's love is being directed at the baby?

Of course not

Here is another question: Does God get angry when you spend time doing other acts of charity when you could be praying? Does he get angry when you ask your friends to pray for you?

I don't think so

One thing my grandma taught me about love is that the more of it you give away, the more you end up having in the end. Just like that baby Jimmy, God does not mind when we share our time with other members of the body of Christ. When you ask a friend to pray for you, a Catholic would say that you actually just "prayed" to your friend. That is because "pray" simply means "to ask". Isn't prayer to God often times "asking" things of God?

As a member of the body of Christ we share in communion with the whole of the body of Christ. We commune not only with God but with our brothers and sisters in Christ. When we become a Christian, we are no longer induvidual orphans, but a family.

So would God be offended if we were to ask Mary for her prayers to God? No more than if you asked your friends to pray for you. Would God be offended if you were devoted to Mary as a spiritual mother? No more than a husband would be offended if his wife spent time devoted to their child.

[quote]Also, what do you think of the Hail Mary?[/quote]

The Hail Mary is one prayer of the Rosary. It comes [b]directly[/b], I mean, word for word, straight out of scripture. But it is only one of the prayers of the rosary. I believe the Rosary is the most complex formal prayer in existance today.

Of the 8 prayers of the Rosary, only two focus on asking Mary for prayer, and of those two, they are both christocentric. That means that the prayer focus' on Christ through Mary. Each Hail Mary prayer has a specific scripture passage that goes along with it in which one should meditate on.

The whole purpose of the Rosary is to draw closer to Jesus.

[quote]doesn't it take the glory from God and give it to Mary, in a way? [/quote]

Mary is God's creation. If I look at a piece of artwork that you may paint and start praising it- would you be offended because I was not praising you? By calling Mary "blessed" as the angel did, we are indeed bringing glory to God. It doesn't take glory away from God, but does the exact opposite- it gives more glory to Him.


Thanks for your questions!

[Ashley]

I found this prayer when reading about the Rosary, it's called the "Hail Holy Queen"

[quote]Hail, holy Queen, [b]Mother of Mercy[/b]!
[b]Our life, our sweetness, and our hope[/b]!
[b]To thee do we cry[/b], poor banished
children of Eve, [b]to thee do we send
up our sighs[/b], mourning and weeping
in this valley, of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God

That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. [/quote]

Now the parts in black are mine, can you please explain them? "Our life"? CHRIST is my life.

Thank you.