God Is A He, And Can Never Be Called A "she"

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 March 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1268072465' post='2068907']
I'm sorry. Not trying to offend you.
[/quote]

The woman does not ejaculate during intercourse for the necessity of procreation, but her willingness to have sex is active and a woman may initiate sex (i.e. approach her husband) which is very active as well. Excuse me for sounding crude, but unless a woman simply lies on a bed and waits to be penetrated and continues to lie there like a rug during the act, she cannot be definitively defined as passive.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1268072720' post='2068911']
The woman does not ejaculate during intercourse for the necessity of procreation, but her willingness to have sex is active and a woman may initiate sex (i.e. approach her husband) which is very active as well. Excuse me for sounding crude, but unless a woman simply lies on a bed and waits to be penetrated and continues to lie there like a rug during the act, she cannot be definitively defined as passive.
[/quote]
Refer to my last post.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 March 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1268072664' post='2068910']
She doesn't *have to be* passive in a practical sense. She can certainly actively will the marital act, but it's not a fundamental necessity. The man has to actively will it, or it literally cannot happen.
I guess this is assuming that the man is not being raped though.....
[/quote]

It seems that you are equating "actively will" with "initiating sex." A woman can initiate sex.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1268072801' post='2068913']
It seems that you are equating "actively will" with "initiating sex." A woman can initiate sex.
[/quote]
Lol, I was thinking the same about you. I think we're talking past each other to some extent.

What I'm trying to get at is the fundamental concept of the marital act. 100% removing all practical ideas, and getting right down to the "philosophical reality" (for lack of a less obtuse term) of the act.

The woman can certainly initiate sex. That's a given. The woman can practically be very active. At the basic level though, her role is to accept the active will of the male. When I say "active will" I again mean at a fundamental level, where his active will refers to his basic intention to complete the marital act. Without this basic intention, there is no marital act, whereas the woman, at the fundamental level, need not have any basic intention to bring it to completion.

Hm, this sounds like the kind of thing a real philosopher needs to talk about, because I don't have to necessary experience to properly express what I'm saying. Lol.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 March 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1268073185' post='2068917']
When I say "active will" I again mean at a fundamental level, where his active will refers to his basic intention to complete the marital act. Without this basic intention, there is no marital act, whereas the woman, at the fundamental level, need not have any basic intention to bring it to completion.
[/quote]

So the woman is lacking the basic intention to complete the marital act? I really have no clue what you are trying to say. It must be my "less perfect" reasoning, as Aquinas would say.

I would say there is no marital act when husband and wife do not participate in it.

[Apotheoun]

Both spouses are simultaneously active and passive during the conjugal act, because the act involves a gift of self to the other.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='08 March 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1268073629' post='2068922']
Both spouses are simultaneously active and passive during the conjugal act, because the act involves a gift of self to the other.
[/quote]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1268073442' post='2068920']
So the woman is lacking the basic intention to complete the marital act? I really have no clue what you are trying to say. It must be my "less perfect" reasoning, as Aquinas would say.

I would say there is no marital act when husband and wife do not participate in it.
[/quote]
Come on, no sarcasm. I'm doing my best.

The woman need not have a basic intention. Like I said via my extreme example, in theory she could be unconscious that pregnancy can occur. The man's active will is necessary. Without it, nothing can possibly happen. The woman's active will is certainly (far and away) the ideal, but is not necessary for the completion of the act.
The marital act would be severely disordered if there were not an active will from both parties, but it could still occur if the man has an active will.

In my opinion this classifies the woman's fundamental role as a passive, accepting one.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 March 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1268073786' post='2068924']
The woman need not have a basic intention. Like I said via my extreme example, in theory she could be unconscious that pregnancy can occur. The man's active will is necessary. Without it, nothing can possibly happen. The woman's active will is certainly (far and away) the ideal, but is not necessary for the completion of the act.
The marital act would be severely disordered if there were not an active will from both parties, but it could still occur if the man has an active will.
[/quote]

You need to define what you mean by "basic intention" and "active will."

[Socrates]

How did this go from being a discussion of God's Divine Fatherhood to a discussion of who does what in bed?

[HisChildForever]

The original post implied that woman is dependent on man for the creation of new life, but man is not dependent on woman. I asked for clarification - and never really got any because the responses seemed to go in circles around my questions - and then I suppose the marital roles during intercourse happened after that.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1268073923' post='2068926']
You need to define what you mean by "basic intention" and "active will."
[/quote]
I do, but I'm out of my depth philosophically.
I'm going to have to leave this particular debate, for that reason, and also because I had a weird brainwave that leads me down a completely different line of reasoning that has a lot less to do with what we're talking about.


For the record though, by basic intention and active will I'm referring to the exercise of free will. You raise your arm if you have a basic intention, or an active will to do so. The basic intention or active will to raise your arm is both a necessary and sufficient condition to the action of raising your arm.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[HisChildForever]

If "active" and "passive" are roles attributed to man and woman on a purely biological level, why do these roles also seem applied to man as a whole and woman as a whole? Are we "ruled" by our sex? After all, if a homosexual is told that his sexual desires are merely a part of his person and do not define him as a person (and therefore said desires can be controlled) then why do we seem to define men and women by their sex or biological processes?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1268074825' post='2068932']
If "active" and "passive" are roles attributed to man and woman on a purely biological level, why do these roles also seem applied to man as a whole and woman as a whole? Are we "ruled" by our sex? After all, if a homosexual is told that his sexual desires are merely a part of his person and do not define him as a person (and therefore said desires can be controlled) then why do we seem to define men and women by their sex or biological processes?
[/quote]
One could argue that the roles on a biological level arise from a more basic reality and are a reflection of something deeper. I don't know though, not something I've studied before.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 March 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1268074729' post='2068931']
For the record though, by basic intention and active will I'm referring to the exercise of free will. You raise your arm if you have a basic intention, or an active will to do so. The basic intention or active will to raise your arm is both a necessary and sufficient condition to the action of raising your arm.
[/quote]

A woman has the free will to determine whether or not she will engage in the marital act with her husband. She also has the free will to engage in this act when she knows she is pregnant through, for example, Natural Family Planning. Therefore she is taking an active role in conception by being aware of her body and by consenting to sex during her fertile period. For this, a man depends entirely on a woman because it is her body that "determines" when a child can be conceived.