An Index Of Catholicism's Decline

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='mortify' date='05 March 2010 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1267843539' post='2067320']
Imprudent decisions were made during and after the Council that have harmed the Church, this has to be frankly admitted, as difficult as it may be.
[/quote]
The Vatican Councils are protected by the Holy Spirit, the aftermath is not. Was there politicking going on? Of course. could some things been stated more clearly? Absolutely. Neither of these two facts negates the protection of the Holy Spirit. THe Council of Trent had the same difficult aftermath.
And as to the stats in the original posts, the number of Catholics - laity and priests are on the rise again.

[Luigi]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='05 March 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1267805931' post='2067050']
Well, maybe quality is more important than quanity.
[/quote]

Agreed.

The exodus from the secular priesthood as well as from the religious orders (men and women) began when the numbers of priests and nuns were at their highest; clearly, many of those who were in orders or vows were false vocations - or at least uncommitted. Many left after the Vatican Council, and I have to wonder if it wasn't because of the true renewal that was going on in the Church - maybe those who left felt their own hypocrisy in the face of the renewal. Prior to the Council, there was a lot of social pressure, or maybe Catholic-culture, in the US; some families sent daughters to the convent almost as a tithe... but not necessarily in response to a call from God. Same thing with men to the religious orders and the diocesan priesthood. Sons & daughters in religious life added luster to a Catholic family's status, but again, that's not the same thing as a call from God.

Personally, I'd rather have fewer vocations but true vocations than lots of not-really-called people filling the ranks.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Luigi' date='06 March 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1267851579' post='2067395']
Agreed.

The exodus from the secular priesthood as well as from the religious orders (men and women) began when the numbers of priests and nuns were at their highest; clearly, many of those who were in orders or vows were false vocations - or at least uncommitted. Many left after the Vatican Council, and I have to wonder if it wasn't because of the true renewal that was going on in the Church - maybe those who left felt their own hypocrisy in the face of the renewal. Prior to the Council, there was a lot of social pressure, or maybe Catholic-culture, in the US; some families sent daughters to the convent almost as a tithe... but not necessarily in response to a call from God. Same thing with men to the religious orders and the diocesan priesthood. Sons & daughters in religious life added luster to a Catholic family's status, but again, that's not the same thing as a call from God.

Personally, I'd rather have fewer vocations but true vocations than lots of not-really-called people filling the ranks.
[/quote]

Prior to V2 in Catholic culture it was viewed as something of a disgrace to leave religious life - I think after V2 when some left it gave many the excuse that they needed to leave the life in which they were not happy. It also meant a certain 'safety in numbers' since so many were leaving. Prior to V2 when one entered religious life one had little to no idea what was ahead - nothing at all like the wealth of information available to discerners nowadays. Hence prior V2 many I think may have got the shock of their life when they entered and often quite romantic notions of religious life met harsh realities and disillusionment and unhappiness followed - but it was, as I said, something of a disgrace to leave and so they plodded on until the mass exodus post V2 made it 'safer' and more accepted to leave.


I too would prefer, if choice there had to be, quality and not quantity re vocations to religious life and the priesthood - to all vocations to all walks of life in fact. This may make for not only stability and holiness in religious life and the priesthood, but also in marriage. I am not too sure what is being done nowadays with those planning to marry - but I am certainly hoping that there is a lengthy preparation and discerning period asked by The Church and with guidance prior to marriage.
Wonderful if we could have both quality AND quantity.


BLessings this Lent - Barb

Edited March 6, 2010 by BarbaraTherese

[mortify]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='05 March 2010 - 10:28 PM' timestamp='1267846081' post='2067338']
The Vatican Councils are protected by the Holy Spirit, the aftermath is not. Was there politicking going on? Of course. could some things been stated more clearly? Absolutely. Neither of these two facts negates the protection of the Holy Spirit. THe Council of Trent had the same difficult aftermath.
And as to the stats in the original posts, the number of Catholics - laity and priests are on the rise again.
[/quote]

The protection of the Holy Spirit is not all encompassing. We are [i]not[/i] protected from our leaders using their free wills imprudently. And we must also remember that the Holy Spirit works from the bottom up as well, helping the laity recognize what is unsound. What the laity realized half a century ago is finally being admitted by Church scholars today, albeit more slowly (see for example Alcuin Reid's book on the Organic Development of the Liturgy.)

[mortify]

[quote name='Luigi' date='05 March 2010 - 11:59 PM' timestamp='1267851579' post='2067395']
The exodus from the secular priesthood as well as from the religious orders (men and women) began when the numbers of priests and nuns were at their highest; clearly, many of those who were in orders or vows were false vocations - or at least uncommitted.
[/quote]

I only met one man who left an order during that time, and it was because of the wholesale adoption of innovations he was seeing. I don't consider him a "false vocation," he is a faithful man who still assists at the traditional Liturgy.

[Luigi]

[quote name='mortify' date='06 March 2010 - 12:58 AM' timestamp='1267855096' post='2067425']
I only met one man who left an order during that time, and it was because of the wholesale adoption of innovations he was seeing. I don't consider him a "false vocation," he is a faithful man who still assists at the traditional Liturgy.
[/quote]

One person is a mighty small example. I don't question your example - there were others like him no doubt - but there were many more on the other side of the coin. Statistics, or even extensive anecdotal research, would be more reliable than one person's story.

[mortify]

[quote name='Luigi' date='06 March 2010 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1267889848' post='2067507']
One person is a mighty small example. I don't question your example - there were others like him no doubt - but there were many more on the other side of the coin. Statistics, or even extensive anecdotal research, would be more reliable than one person's story.
[/quote]

My point was you can't assume the people who left the religious life were false vocations. If a person is part of a religious order that starts adopting innovations contrary to tradition and faith, and feels that continuing to participate in such an order would cause them spiritual harm, they are not bound to stay. I would not be surprised if the example I gave represented the vast majority of cases.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='mortify' date='05 March 2010 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1267854600' post='2067424']
(see for example Alcuin Reid's book on the Organic Development of the Liturgy.)
[/quote]

Great book. I'm half way through it. Really puts the liturgy and real organic development in perspective.

[HisChild]

[quote name='mortify' date='05 March 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1267855096' post='2067425']
I only met one man who left an order during that time, and it was because of the wholesale adoption of innovations he was seeing. I don't consider him a "false vocation," he is a faithful man who still assists at the traditional Liturgy.
[/quote]


I'm with you there. I too know of an incredibly holy priest who went overseas to be a military chaplain in the 60s. When he returned he said that his entire Church had changed... from removing statues and communion rails in the churches, to the drastic alterations in the Mass. He felt that he couldn't BE Catholic any longer in the Catholic Church.

He's now a priest in the Greek Orthodox Church.

I don't believe his vocation was false.

[Sister Marie]

I can see how it might be reassuring to have something to blame for the so-called decline of Catholicism, however, I think that no matter what has happened in the past we have been given a gift from God for our salvation and sanctification. We are called during this time of "decline" to hope more radically and to sacrifice more generously for those who have fallen away. As I look at the history of our church it seems that the most saints come from times when real sacrifice and commitment are necessary to practice the faith.

My point is, thank God it is not easy to trust. Thank God it is not easy to hope. Thank God that we are being called forward in faith to be leaven in the world and within the Church during a time when the Church is experiencing hardships. I truly believe that it is a blessing from God to be living in times that call for such radical devotion. We are all called to be saints and we have an opportunity here to respond with a total gift of self. God only allows things to happen for the good of our souls. This may be one of those times. Instead of worrying about how it happened, let us build one another up in faith and confidence and move forward in God's providence.

I cannot find the direct quote right now, maybe someone else has it, but I believe Pope Benedict said during his trip to the US, that the Church may become smaller, but more faithful. I think that is the lens through which we must look at these sad statistics for the future. We are getting smaller, but our actions now are what will make us more or less faithful.

God bless.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='mortify' date='06 March 2010 - 01:50 AM' timestamp='1267854600' post='2067424']
The protection of the Holy Spirit is not all encompassing. We are [i]not[/i] protected from our leaders using their free wills imprudently. And we must also remember that the Holy Spirit works from the bottom up as well, helping the laity recognize what is unsound. What the laity realized half a century ago is finally being admitted by Church scholars today, albeit more slowly (see for example Alcuin Reid's book on the Organic Development of the Liturgy.)
[/quote]
Not true at all.
A half century the laity were quite pleased to have the long fasts reduced and the Mass in English. THe outright disobedieince didn't start until the birth control issue. Once Catholics decided they didn't have to obey the Pope over birth control, all other parts of the church became fair game to dissent.

[HisChild]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='06 March 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1267936696' post='2067803']
Not true at all.
A half century the laity were quite pleased to have the long fasts reduced and the Mass in English. THe outright disobedieince didn't start until the birth control issue. Once Catholics decided they didn't have to obey the Pope over birth control, all other parts of the church became fair game to dissent.
[/quote]

Some of the laity, you mean. While I'm grateful that the Mass is now in the vernacular, I was disheartened to see the fasts become like some nominal thing. In fact, that's one of the reasons I observe the Byzantine Catholic Lent, BECAUSE of its more rigorous fasting and monastic focus.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Sister Marie' date='07 March 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1267928636' post='2067741']
I can see how it might be reassuring to have something to blame for the so-called decline of Catholicism, however, I think that no matter what has happened in the past we have been given a gift from God for our salvation and sanctification. We are called during this time of "decline" to hope more radically and to sacrifice more generously for those who have fallen away. As I look at the history of our church it seems that the most saints come from times when real sacrifice and commitment are necessary to practice the faith.

My point is, thank God it is not easy to trust. Thank God it is not easy to hope. Thank God that we are being called forward in faith to be leaven in the world and within the Church during a time when the Church is experiencing hardships. I truly believe that it is a blessing from God to be living in times that call for such radical devotion. We are all called to be saints and we have an opportunity here to respond with a total gift of self. God only allows things to happen for the good of our souls. This may be one of those times. Instead of worrying about how it happened, let us build one another up in faith and confidence and move forward in God's providence.

I cannot find the direct quote right now, maybe someone else has it, but I believe Pope Benedict said during his trip to the US, that the Church may become smaller, but more faithful. I think that is the lens through which we must look at these sad statistics for the future. We are getting smaller, but our actions now are what will make us more or less faithful.

God bless.
[/quote]


Good post - thoughtful.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChild' date='06 March 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1267927857' post='2067734']
I'm with you there. I too know of an incredibly holy priest who went overseas to be a military chaplain in the 60s. When he returned he said that his entire Church had changed... from removing statues and communion rails in the churches, to the drastic alterations in the Mass. He felt that he couldn't BE Catholic any longer in the Catholic Church.

He's now a priest in the Greek Orthodox Church.

I don't believe his vocation was false.
[/quote]


I don't know how holy he could have been from a Catholic standpoint if he was willing to enter into schism with the Church due to changes enacted through a council.

[HisChild]

[quote name='Hassan' date='06 March 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1267943081' post='2067882']
I don't know how holy he could have been from a Catholic standpoint if he was willing to enter into schism with the Church due to changes enacted through a council.
[/quote]


I find that a very narrow minded approach, because even the Catholic Church acknowledges the holiness and the validity of the Orthodox Church, even if in 'schism' . . . and in all actuality the OC and the RC removed the MUTUAL bulls of excommunication in the 60s.

Father Bill was not alone in his journey. I can't tell you how many Orthodox and Eastern Catholics I've met over the past couple of years who used to be Roman Catholic. I know the Catholic Church states its members have reached an all time high. Even our Catholic newspaper brag that over 1000 are entering the Church this year. But they don't keep track or figure into the numbers those who have left or even perhaps care why.

V II is a very hot topic on here. Some believe that everything wrong in the Church stemmed from it, and some believe that everything right came from V II. I do think there were good things that came from it... but also some really horrid interpretations of what it said. And because of that our Masses [b](at least where I live)[/b] have become these casual and quick 'meetings' where it's more horizontal than vertical in its worship. It's a quick, sing a few contemp. songs, read a reading, receive Jesus and you're on your way. One priests' blog (I think it was Father Z) had an irreverent pic (but sadly accurate) of a drive through Eucharist. It's shameful that some Masses really do feel like that. Then, there's the matter that priests here are stretched too thin to be able to offer any other assistance beyond what people hear during their homilies. So instead of making them count, they talk about social justice and political issues. And the laity are left floundering without direction, often times turning to spiritual self help books for their spiritual needs because they've been so poorly catechized that they don't know the difference.

Should Father have stayed to combat for those poor souls he left behind? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But it doesn't make him any less holy because he went to the Orthodox Church.