The Heavens Are Silent

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='17 March 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1268868806' post='2074864']
I would say that I have struggled with these thoughts before as well. Then I had a child. In her I understand who I am to be, I better see how God sees me. I think too much and act too little. I kick and scream against the pull of the Father. In my selfishness I do not see why he does these things to me. I think He is wrong. But I am the child.

When you are a child the days are full of joy and you never wish them to end. It seems as if time will go on forever. You wish for it to go on forever. As an adult I grow weary of time. I can feel it bearing down on me, stalking me. Eternity is incomprehensible, yet the finality of life is terrifying. I hope to again be as a child, for time to have little consequence.

I know the universe will end. All that has been done and will ever be done will amount nothing. It will only matter if it is remembered. Is this not the wish of all the souls who die? But we forget. Only He can remember. It is only how He remembers me that matters. Still the hardest part for me is to put my trust in Him, just as it is for the child kicking and screaming against their father's will. I love my daughter more than I can say, yet she cannot understand or see that I am really just protecting her.

I am not sure if this means anything for you, I have always read your posts and felt that I should say something.

You have my prayers.
[/quote]
Well said. All things shall be kept safe in His eternal memory.

[Jaime]

If you don't believe the Eucharist is real, then you will find a thousand serious flaws with the Church and leave. If you do believe the Eucharist is real, you will see a thousand flaws with the Church and work to fix them.

yeah I know, Era hasn't mentioned the Eucharist once. (And I'm probably his least favorite pmer) But this is what it all boils down to. Era is smart enough to create an argument that can't be countered. Paul wouldn't be accepted in the institution today because he was once a killer. Apologies from bishops in matters of sexual abuse fall short because they are tainted with sin! Well that leaves room for whom? No one.

If you accept the Real Presence in the Eucharist, then be Catholic. Help your fellow man. Participate in the sacraments and please (I'm not being a jerk) get out of your head and put your energies to good use. If you don't believe in the Real Presence, then stay a non-Catholic and (pardon me for saying so) stop ripping on my church. I personally don't believe that people who refuse to stick around to help, get to b**ch about it as the walk out the door. But please Era, find something you DO believe in. If it aint the Catholic Church, fine, I'll respect that. But find something that you can believe in. Something you are willing to work for, stand up for and fight for.

Our differences aside, you're not a bad person. But I think you are into your head too much. I wouldn't know you if you walked down the street and bumped into me. But the posts you've been putting up for some months tell me that you might be missing community in real life (irl to you kids).

[Era Might]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='17 March 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1268872549' post='2074892']But the posts you've been putting up for some months tell me that you might be missing community in real life (irl to you kids).
[/quote]
Yes! This has been my point the whole time.

I live in a society, and am hopelessly attached to a Church, where institutions replace community.

I live in a society where you can "friend" someone by sending them an electronic message.

I live in a society where if I and another person looked up from our cell phones and said "Hello" to each other on the train, we would both drop dead of fear.

I live in a society where there is no community. There are only schools, hospitals, prisons, parishes, etc. In other words, there are institutions.

You are absolutely right that I am missing community. I and pretty much everyone else in this society. We just don't realize it because we think institutions are community.

What am I to do with the realization that there is hardly any such thing as community in modern society? I don't know what I am to do. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.

[Era Might]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='17 March 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1268872549' post='2074892']If you accept the Real Presence in the Eucharist, then be Catholic.
[/quote]
I'm not sure how this follows. I do believe in the Eucharist. But the Eastern Orthodox have the Eucharist too.

[Era Might]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='17 March 2010 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1268868806' post='2074864']I am not sure if this means anything for you, I have always read your posts and felt that I should say something.[/quote]
Yes, it does. Thank you (and everyone else) for posting.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1268873740' post='2074903']
Yes! This has been my point the whole time.

I live in a society, and am hopelessly attached to a Church, where institutions replace community.

I live in a society where you can "friend" someone by sending them an electronic message.

I live in a society where if I and another person looked up from our cell phones and said "Hello" to each other on the train, we would both drop dead of fear.

I live in a society where there is no community. There are only schools, hospitals, prisons, parishes, etc. In other words, there are institutions.

You are absolutely right that I am missing community. I and pretty much everyone else in this society.

What am I to do with the realization that there is no such thing as community in modern society? I don't know what I am to do. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.
[/quote]

A community is the people you surround yourself with and care for. My community is the two little old ladies who live behind me, the family across the street whose kids grew up with mine, and other neighbors on my block. My community is the drug dealer who lives next to me and all her ornery children. My community are the people in my family, that I know at church, at the grocery store, and thru my town. My community is phatmass. My community are the people I choose to worry about, pray for, fight with and love. Some of us are bonded by blood, by friendship, or the simple hello in passing every day out on the street- but the ARE my community because I choose to make it so.

[Era Might]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='17 March 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1268874773' post='2074912']
A community is the people you surround yourself with and care for. My community is the two little old ladies who live behind me, the family across the street whose kids grew up with mine, and other neighbors on my block. My commnunity is the drug dealer who lives next to me and all her ornery children. My community are the people in my family, that I know at church, at the grocery store, and thru my town. My community is phatmass. My community are the people I choose to worry about, pray for, fight with and love. Some of us are bonded by blood, by friendship, or the simple hello in passing every day out on the street- but the ARE my community because I choose to make it so.
[/quote]
Yes, there are heroic people (like Dorothy Day, and it appears like yourself) who have managed to build some kind of community in modern society. It's a beautiful thing to have community. That is why it is so maddening to live in a society and a Church where institutions replace community.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1268874993' post='2074913']
Yes, there are heroic people (like Dorothy Day, and it appears like yourself) who have managed to build some kind of community in modern society. It's a beautiful thing to have community. That is why it is so maddening to live in a society and a Church where institutions replace community.
[/quote]
It has NOTHING to do with heroism. You take where ever you live and build relationships with those around you. You cultivate them like flowers
Its a choice on how you want to live your life Era, where ever you live and whatever you choose to do. It helps to decide to stay in one place for awhile, to make up your mind that this is your spot on this planet and decide to make it a better place.
Insitutions are simply organized ways of doing things that cannot be done by one person alone, filled with people with whom you can build relationships. I can't clothe all the needy people in my town in winter-time, but as a part of church I can collect gloves and scarves and coats to help quite a few of them.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1268873740' post='2074903']
Yes! This has been my point the whole time.

I live in a society, and am hopelessly attached to a Church, where institutions replace community.

I live in a society where you can "friend" someone by sending them an electronic message.

I live in a society where if I and another person looked up from our cell phones and said "Hello" to each other on the train, we would both drop dead of fear.

I live in a society where there is no community. There are only schools, hospitals, prisons, parishes, etc. In other words, there are institutions.

You are absolutely right that I am missing community. I and pretty much everyone else in this society. We just don't realize it because we think institutions are community.

What am I to do with the realization that there is hardly any such thing as community in modern society? I don't know what I am to do. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.
[/quote]

this is what you do

1. Call a friend and say "Hey Bob, let's grab a coffee"
2. Go and hang out drink coffee talk about funny and pointless stuff
3. Repeat with Bob or someone else the next day
4. Repeat again

This is what not to do

1. spend hours in a chat room
2. spend hours on a phorum inviting people to a chat room
3. text people who haven't been to the phorum or the chat room

[jkaands]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1268873740' post='2074903']
Yes! This has been my point the whole time.

I live in a society, and am hopelessly attached to a Church, where institutions replace community.

I live in a society where you can "friend" someone by sending them an electronic message.

I live in a society where if I and another person looked up from our cell phones and said "Hello" to each other on the train, we would both drop dead of fear.

I live in a society where there is no community. There are only schools, hospitals, prisons, parishes, etc. In other words, there are institutions.

You are absolutely right that I am missing community. I and pretty much everyone else in this society. We just don't realize it because we think institutions are community.

What am I to do with the realization that there is hardly any such thing as community in modern society? I don't know what I am to do. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.
[/quote]

Achieving community is difficult in this country but it can be done--but not necessarily by or within institutions. I don't think that the Catholic Church is building it very well right now, according to what I read on the forums. No coffee & doughnuts, at least not many , no 'chat, greeters, groups for new members, etc. Unitarian-Universalits and Quakers are virtually ONLY about community--this, and social justice, are what they are all about. Committees, potlucks, bookgroups, justice--on and on. One way or another, if you participate in these you will be part of a close-knit community whether you want to or not! It is clear from my meeting some of these folks that they are all close to each other. Many other Protestant churches work intensely on building community. My daughter's neighborhood has it-many work part-time, have alternative sorts of households, one gay partners with adopted child, one Down's child, one inter-racial adoption--have get-togethers frequentm, send their kids to the neighborhood school., not to a bunch of different private schools. However, for myself, I have never lived in a neighborhood who had it--too disparate socially, economically. No institution has it automatically--it needs to be worked at.

[Era Might]

[quote name='jkaands' date='17 March 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1268882323' post='2074958']
Achieving community is difficult in this country but it can be done--but not necessarily by or within institutions.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree. There are various people who have experimented with different models of community (not just in their personal lives). Dorothy Day is one of the more prominent people who did so (she co-founded the Catholic Worker).

Dorothy Day is actually an interesting case, because she was staunchly Catholic. Yet the Catholic Worker communities were also very much non-institutional.

[AccountDeleted]

Era - is your issue that there are no miracles today (the heavens are silent) or that the Church is an institution and not a community?

For the second, the Church isn't really meant to be a community is it? It may have been in the early days, but I don't think Christ set out to establish a community, so much as an organization that would preach the good news about salvation. I, for one, don't want my Church to be too much of a community because I go there to worship, not to socialize. But I do understand that man is a social animal, so many people like too congregate and make friends at church. I don't see why you can't do this as well, if that is what you want. I chose the Latin Mass so I could focus on the sacrifice, not the socializing, but the Church is so wonderful, she provides for both in the OF and the EF.

As for the first, the heavens are silent... not so, but they aren't screaming either. To hear them, one must be very quiet oneself. Sure, we would all like to touch the wounds like Thomas, but Jesus did tell him that more blessed were those who could believe NOT having seen. It is harder, but it is what He says is blessed. I often hear the heavens but only when I am very very very quiet inside.

All I can suggest is to take this pain to Jesus in prayer and to ask Him to answer your questions in your heart. Sometimes He is talking to us but we aren't listening. It might not be that you need to see someone raised from the dead, or a demon exorcised, but you might need to feel that 'personal' touch in your heart from Him. He can and will do this, but not if you are screaming at him, demanding it. I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers because in you, I see myself at many times during my life.

[Era Might]

[quote name='nunsense' date='18 March 2010 - 07:50 AM' timestamp='1268913059' post='2075059']
Era - is your issue that there are no miracles today (the heavens are silent) or that the Church is an institution and not a community?[/quote]
Both. They are interrelated.

My issue is not really that "there are no miracles today" (people claim miracles today). My point about miracles is just that miracles are claims, not facts. Even non-Christians claim miracles.

[quote]For the second, the Church isn't really meant to be a community is it?[/quote]
The Church is the Body of Christ and the "household of God" (1Timothy 3:15). How can a family living in the same household not be a community?

[quote]It may have been in the early days, but I don't think Christ set out to establish a community, so much as an organization that would preach the good news about salvation.[/quote]
This is precisely what I disagree with, the idea that the Church is some kind of "organization." The Church is a family of witnesses to Christ. To turn the Church into an organization is to cheapen it to something like a corporate business. The Church is not here to maintain a corporation, she is here to witness to someone (i.e., to Christ).

[quote]I, for one, don't want my Church to be too much of a community because I go there to worship, not to socialize. But I do understand that man is a social animal, so many people like too congregate and make friends at church. I don't see why you can't do this as well, if that is what you want. I chose the Latin Mass so I could focus on the sacrifice, not the socializing, but the Church is so wonderful, she provides for both in the OF and the EF.[/quote]
I'm not looking for "socializing" either. What I'm talking about is community, not "socializing." I'm talking about family. I think that can only take place outside of the parish, not within it. I am skeptical of the idea of the parish, because the parish becomes just another institution that tries to hold Christians together. I think that to truly build community, you have to go outside of the parish and into your own homes.

I was talking to a Protestant a few months ago and she was telling me how she changed churches because her old church was too expensive. I was a bit taken aback. How can church be expensive? She said that the "activities" there were too expensive for her, so she went to a new church with less expensive activities. She has lots of friends and activities at her new church. But that is not the kind of community I'm talking about (and I find that kind of community off-putting in the context of a church).

Here is the kind of community I am talking about:

[quote]And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

--Acts 2:43-47[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1268856342' post='2074775']
Yes, that is part of the problem, but I would say that it is only a symptom of the real problem.

I will pose a question as an attempt on my part to get at the root of the problem: Would St. Paul be welcome today at your parish? I think that St. Paul would have no real place in the institutionalized Church. To volunteer at your parish, he would probably be required to undergo a criminal history check. The institution would see that he has been guilty of killing Christians in the past, so he would be excluded from volunteering in the various institutional programs. As far as becoming a Bishop, you can forget about that. St. Paul was sort of the Osama Bin Laden of his day. If Osama Bin Laden converted to Christianity, would he be welcome at your parish? Would he even be considered for ordination as a Bishop?[/quote]
Too many "what ifs" - this is comparing very different eras.
"Background checks" are an unfortunate part of modern life (not to open up a whole huge debate here), and are hardly limited to Church activities. Personally, I'd rather deal with background checks, than have a kiddie-raper slip into the CCD program.
Secondly, there was a very different legal situation: Saul's persecution of Christians was sanctioned by the Jewish authorities - essentially Christians were considered criminals at the time, and Saul was a cop. It was more equivalent to changing sides in a war. Paul still had to prove his sincere conversion before being formally accepted. The Church does still accept and welcome people who converted from being enemies of the Church. Dr. Bernard Nathanson comes to mind, who was formerly an abortionist and atheist, but is now a Catholic pro-life activist.

[quote]What am I trying to get at with this analogy? My point is that institutions are "respectable." They have to maintain their position in society (or else the institution is threatened). That is why, for example, when Bishops apologize for sexual abuse, the apology is so hollow. Who cares about an institution's apology? A real Christian witness would be sackcloth and ashes. Instead, we get press statements from diocesan spokesmen. Catholics talk about excommunicating pro-abortion politicians. But the Church is so institutionalized that such an excommunication is hollow. It's a way for the institution to avoid "scandal." But there is no sense of the Church as a supernatural family that is casting out a brother. The Bishop is likely a stranger to the politician he would be excommunicating. The politician is probably a stranger to his parish. The institution binds everyone together, and such an institutional relationship is pathetic.

"Scandal." We hear a lot about priestly "scandals." But what's the response going to be to those scandals? The Church will make a few institutional moves, defrock a few priests, and then the institution can regain its "respectability." Maybe the Pope will write a lofty letter about how sexual abuse is a sin (there may even be a few harsh words in the letter...but not too harsh, because institutions are cool calm collected and in control of the situation). The institution provides a mirage that it is weathering a storm, but that it will be fine eventually. Like any good institution, it has to do damage control, it has to assure people that despite bumps in the road, the institution will survive. But the Church cannot see that it is precisely its institutionalization that has made it so weak and cowardly.[/quote]
In past ages, the offending priests might have been hanged, or even burned for their crimes, but somehow I don't think that option would fly with you.
I'm not really convinced that less structure (or "institutionalization") in the Church would necessarily led to harsher punishments for sexually abusive priests.

[quote]Let me use prison as an example. I am all for finding alternatives to the prison system in the United States. I believe that our prison system is inherently flawed. But I do not want to see the Church getting involved in prison reform. Why? It’s not because I think prison reform is unnecessary; rather, it is because the Church’s mission is something different. When the Church gets involved in social issues, then one of three things happens: either the Church becomes another institution trying to preserve the status quo, or else the Church shows itself incapable of doing what needs to be done. So, for example, the Church might support this or that prison reform, but the Church doesn’t have the courage to call for the abolition of the prison system as it exists. That is too radical a proposal to be made by a "respectable" institution. And when Priests do get involved in radical solutions to social problems, they thereby cease to act as signs of Sacramental unity, and instead they become divisive politicians and social workers.[/quote]
Yeah, prisons smell of elderberries.

That's why I'm a fan of the good old-fashioned hangman's noose. Electric chairs are cool too.



More to the point . . .
How have parishes prevented you from forming friendships and reaching out to your neighbors, or doing things to get personally involved with people either within or without your parish?

How have Catholic charitable organizations prevented you from performing any acts of personal charity?

If you think there's a lack of community or personal charity, do something positive about it. I can guarantee you, endlessly railing against Church "institutions" will accomplish absolutely zip.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' date='18 March 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1268933190' post='2075187']More to the point . . .
How have parishes prevented you from forming friendships and reaching out to your neighbors, or doing things to get personally involved with people either within or without your parish?

How have Catholic charitable organizations prevented you from performing any acts of personal charity?

If you think there's a lack of community or personal charity, do something positive about it. I can guarantee you, endlessly railing against Church "institutions" will accomplish absolutely zip.
[/quote]
As I said before, this thread is not about me. There are any number of things that I can do in my personal life. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the problem of institutionalization in society and in the Church.

I'm not "railing" against anything. I'm discussing the nature of institutions and their affect on society and on the Church.

It is certainly possible to build a counter-culture within an institutionalized society. Possible, though not easy. But nevertheless, if people never point out what's wrong with society (and with the Church), then we just continue to be blind to what's happening around us.

If I wanted to "rail" against the Church, I would just ignore it. The only reason why I discuss these matters is because I actually care about the Church, and am appalled and saddened at what it has become over the centuries.