The Heavens Are Silent

[cmotherofpirl]

I do understand your dilemma Era. However,you can't say what the Church [i]is[/i] as a whole, because we only see the earthly part of it mixed up in the fallen nature of humanity. We can't see the choirs of angels, the communion of Saints, God Almighty, the glory and infinity of heaven. We get glimpses of it in Revelations and in the lives of some of the saints, but that is as close as we get.
Looking at it from our point of view it can be a pretty solid mess, but I really don't think of that as anything new. The human end of the deal has been a solid mess since the fall of Adam and Eve. Every generation since Cain and Abel has had scandals, stupidities and sin, and until the Second coming not much will change. Every generation has its saints as well to lead the way and demonstrate holiness, obedience and love of God.
The Holy Spirit guides the Church in that we get course corrections away from the cliffs, and then of course we head towards a different disaster and we get course corrected again. I'm not gonna do the "we are church" line because that simply emphasizes the here and now, and not the eternal Body of Christ which is our home.
When I get in that mood I go re-read C. S. Lewis.
This passage has stuck in my mind ever since I read The Silver Chair.
"For context, Puddleglum the Marshwiggle, along with 2 children and a prince, is trapped in an underground world by an evil witch. The witch uses her powers to try to persuade her captives to forget the world above, telling them that their idea of a sun simply stems from seeing lamps and wishing for a bigger better lamp, and their idea of a lion stems from seeing cats and wishing for a bigger and better cat. After a few moments, Puddleglum answers:

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said... 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Supose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."

[Era Might]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 March 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1267766746' post='2066940']The Church, as an institution, is still the largest provider of charity in the entire world. That fruit should at least show you something of the nature of the Church.

What part of the "institution" of the Church are you having difficulty with?

You mustn't let the wolves in sheep's clothing make you shy away from the other sheep, or the abusive hireling drive you away from the Good Shepherd.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
It is not scandal that drives me away. Just the opposite. It is the institutionalization of good. You mention one of the major problems with what the Church has become. It has become a "provider of charity." It has taken the absolutely free and personal vocation of love to which Christ invited each person, and it has turned that vocation into institutions. Western civilization is built on the premise of institutionalization. It was the Church that gave birth to Western civilization, because it was the Church that institutionalized the Gospel. The Apostles were holy f[i][/i]ools and fishers of men. The Church took this beautiful witness of the Apostolic vocation, and turned it into a religious government. Popes and Bishops become princes of this world. The Church went from a witness to a free vocation of grace offered by Christ, and instead the Church became a sociopolitical institution that attempted to institutionalize the Gospel so as to bring everyone into the Church's sphere of influence. The Apostles and the early Christians gave their lives as non-violent martyrs. In contrast, later Popes called for Christians to kill the infidel. Today, the Church is buried under centuries of institutionalization. The Church of Western civilization can have no real courage, because true courage would threaten the Church's institutions. The fact that the Pope has armed guards exemplifies to me the utter perversion of the Gospel that has taken place in the Church over the centuries. Everything in the Church is institutionalized. The vocation to love is exercised through "charitable institutions" rather than in our own homes. The passing on of the faith is done through schooling institutions where "Christians" are manufactured like machines in a factory. Gone is the free and personal decision of discipleship; the Church has become a cultural institution rather than a prophetic witness to Christ. And in this respect, the Church is like every other religion. The Egyptians had their cultural religion. The Greeks had their cultural religion. The Muslims have their cultural religion. The Hindus have their cultural religion. All of these religions were/are sociocultural institutions, and so is the Church. So how I am I to believe that the Church is any different from any other religion? The Gospel is beautiful and utterly transcendent. But I no longer see the Gospel being witnessed to as it was in the early Church, because the Church has been corrupted through institutionalization. The Church is worried about protecting the Pope's institutional office, and hence he has armed guards. The idea of Christ or St. Peter with armed guards would be laughable if it weren't so blasphemous.

[Ed Normile]

The church is no institution, there are institutions in the church but the church is the collection of souls that make up the communion of saints. We are the church, and yes there are, unfortunately, some of us that do not live up to Christ' example, perhaps God failed you for allowing us to be human, or maybe he is calling you to better the body of the church by your actions.

ed

[Era Might]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 March 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1267769717' post='2066955']
The church is no institution, there are institutions in the church but the church is the collection of souls that make up the communion of saints. We are the church, and yes there are, unfortunately, some of us that do not live up to Christ' example, perhaps God failed you for allowing us to be human, or maybe he is calling you to better the body of the church by your actions.

ed
[/quote]
Believe me, it is not failing that bothers me. It is the idea that I have to accept failing because the Church does it, or the idea that I have to accept institutionalization because the Church has blessed it.

I cannot be a part of the Church as an institution. I cannot "work within" the ecclesial institution. I just can't, because the cost is too high; I cannot be an accomplice to the institutionalization of the Gospel. The best I can do is basically ignore the Church as an institution, and just worry about living the Gospel. I believe in Apostolic authority and Apostolic succession; but I cannot approve of the institutionalization of this Apostolic authority, because it makes the Church manipulative and legalistic.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Era Might' date='04 March 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1267729337' post='2066553']
The Greeks also believed in all kinds of wondrous events...and yet those events that the Greeks believed in were false, because the Greek gods were false.


[/quote]


Well let us not forget that the belief in many Gods was proven to be illogical way back before Christ. If your finding the belief in One God and His Church to be illogical then thats a different story.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Era Might' date='05 March 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1267768149' post='2066947']
It is not scandal that drives me away. Just the opposite. It is the institutionalization of good. You mention one of the major problems with what the Church has become. It has become a "provider of charity." It has taken the absolutely free and personal vocation of love to which Christ invited each person, and it has turned that vocation into institutions. Western civilization is built on the premise of institutionalization. It was the Church that gave birth to Western civilization, because it was the Church that institutionalized the Gospel. The Apostles were holy f[i][/i]ools and fishers of men. The Church took this beautiful witness of the Apostolic vocation, and turned it into a religious government. Popes and Bishops become princes of this world. The Church went from a witness to a free vocation of grace offered by Christ, and instead the Church became a sociopolitical institution that attempted to institutionalize the Gospel so as to bring everyone into the Church's sphere of influence. The Apostles and the early Christians gave their lives as non-violent martyrs. In contrast, later Popes called for Christians to kill the infidel. Today, the Church is buried under centuries of institutionalization. The Church of Western civilization can have no real courage, because true courage would threaten the Church's institutions. The fact that the Pope has armed guards exemplifies to me the utter perversion of the Gospel that has taken place in the Church over the centuries. Everything in the Church is institutionalized. The vocation to love is exercised through "charitable institutions" rather than in our own homes. The passing on of the faith is done through schooling institutions where "Christians" are manufactured like machines in a factory. Gone is the free and personal decision of discipleship; the Church has become a cultural institution rather than a prophetic witness to Christ. And in this respect, the Church is like every other religion. The Egyptians had their cultural religion. The Greeks had their cultural religion. The Muslims have their cultural religion. The Hindus have their cultural religion. All of these religions were/are sociocultural institutions, and so is the Church. So how I am I to believe that the Church is any different from any other religion? The Gospel is beautiful and utterly transcendent. But I no longer see the Gospel being witnessed to as it was in the early Church, because the Church has been corrupted through institutionalization. The Church is worried about protecting the Pope's institutional office, and hence he has armed guards. The idea of Christ or St. Peter with armed guards would be laughable if it weren't so blasphemous.
[/quote]


Sounds like you may have a Franciscan vocation.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Era Might' date='05 March 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1267768149' post='2066947']
It is not scandal that drives me away. Just the opposite. It is the institutionalization of good. You mention one of the major problems with what the Church has become. It has become a "provider of charity." It has taken the absolutely free and personal vocation of love to which Christ invited each person, and it has turned that vocation into institutions. Western civilization is built on the premise of institutionalization. It was the Church that gave birth to Western civilization, because it was the Church that institutionalized the Gospel. The Apostles were holy geniuses and fishers of men. The Church took this beautiful witness of the Apostolic vocation, and turned it into a religious government. Popes and Bishops become princes of this world. The Church went from a witness to a free vocation of grace offered by Christ, and instead the Church became to a sociopolitical institution that attempted to institutionalize the Gospel so as to bring everyone into the Church's institutional sphere of influence. The Apostles and the early Christians gave their lives as non-violent martyrs. In contrast, later Popes called for Christians to kill the infidel. Today, the Church is buried under centuries of institutionalization. The Church of Western civilization can have no real courage, because true courage would threaten the Church's institutions. The fact that the Pope has armed guards exemplifies to me to utter perversion of the Gospel that has taken place in the Church over the centuries. I have respect for Pope Benedict as a man, but as a Bishop he represents the institution and everything that goes with it. Everything in the Church is institutionalized. The vocation to love is exercised through "charitable institutions" rather than in our own homes. The passing on of the faith is done through schooling institutions where "Christians" are manufactured like machines in a factory. Gone is the free and personal decision of discipleship; the Church has become a cultural institution rather than a prophetic witness to Christ. And in this respect, the Church is like every other religion. The Egyptians had their cultural religion. The Greeks had their cultural religion. The Muslims have their cultural religion. The Hindus have their cultural religion. All of these religions were/are sociocultural institutions, and so is the Church. So how I am I to believe that the Church is any different from any other religion? The Gospel is beautiful and utterly transcendent. But I no longer see the Gospel being witnessed to as it was in the early Church, because the Church has been corrupted through institutionalization. The Pope is worried about protecting his institutional office, and hence he has armed guards. The idea of Christ or St. Peter with armed guards would be laughable if it weren't so blasphemous.
[/quote]

As always, when in doubt, do as they say, not as they do. The Popes have always talked about [i]interpersonal relationships. [/i]They don't extol the idea of making charity a type of 9-5 business. The institution is merely a sturdy framework in which people can act in charitable ways. Mother Teresa is a beautiful exemplification of the Catholic life, the antithesis of what you hate to see in the Church. She had an organization, a system, and buildings that helped her carry on her works of individual, personal love. And it helped other individuals do the same, acting in concert with her. The acts didn't become less loving because there was an institution supporting it.

The Church, as an institution, is a spiritual army, in a spiritual war. The weapons are love. The corporal and spiritual works of mercy. The orders might be considered "Special Forces." Laypeople are guerilla cells: operating autonomously with general and remote direction from above, but also capable of acting in concert with other cells for the Cause. It's as institutionalized as you want to let it be. It's not holding you back. You can love as much as you want, in whatever way you want. You no longer see the Gospel being witnessed to as in the early Church because the Gospel is seldom witnessed to as it was in the early Church. But nothing is stopping you from living the Gospel like it was lived then. God sent a lot of zealous, fiery-eyed religious people to heap a lot of hot coals on people's heads when they became spiritually complacent and decadent. It's happened in all the religious orders, from St. Francis to St. Teresa to St. Catherine of Siena. Look at the good being wrought, on a personal, individual level, through the loving work of Fr. Benedict Groeschel's boys, the Fransiscan Friars of the Renewal. These orders not only accept donations for their "institution," but most orders are more than happy have you, as an individual, come and personally volunteer to witness to other individuals, ministering to their bodies and souls. And again, nothing and nobody is stopping you from pursuing these good ends on your own. It is as you say: individual witnessing to the Gospel is the most important work that can be done by any individual. The goal is to live one's life in a holy way and have others say, "Who is that person?" and through this blameless and good life, introduce them to the love of Christ. That's my game plan, but I have a long, long road ahead of me.

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='05 March 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1267770256' post='2066959']
Sounds like you may have a Franciscan vocation.
[/quote]

Indeed he may.

~Sternhauser

[cmotherofpirl]

Agreed.

Saint Francis wrote in his rule, "The rule and life of the friars minor is to live the holy Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
Sounds like what you are looking for:
http://www.franciscanfriars.com/welcome/index.htm

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Remember that Christ had a money bag for collections, He also had followers, they were told when and when not to do something by Him much like the authority of the Church. He sent them here or he sent them there. He told them to do this or he told them to do that. Much like the Church.

[Era Might]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='05 March 2010 - 01:24 AM' timestamp='1267770256' post='2066959']
Sounds like you may have a Franciscan vocation.
[/quote]
As I said, I cannot work within the institution. That includes religious life, which has been institutionalized like everything else in the Church. Priests and religious are free labor for the ecclesial institution. The Church builds all kinds of institutions precisely because it has this free labor (e.g., nuns and Jesuits to run schooling institutions). The religious orders have become branches in the worldwide ecclesial institution. Becoming a monk or a nun means becoming a sort of employee for the worldwide ecclesial institution, because joining the religious order is by extension making a commitment to the ecclesial institution. I am not against religious life, but I do not believe in institutionalized religious life. As I said, the best I can do is ignore the Church as an institution, because the institution inevitably wants to control and manage everything, even your vocation.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Era Might' date='05 March 2010 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1267771255' post='2066968']
As I said, I cannot work within the institution. That includes religious life, which has been institutionalized like everything else in the Church. Priests and religious are free labor for the ecclesial institution. The Church builds all kinds of institutions precisely because it has this free labor (e.g., nuns and Jesuits to run schooling institutions). The religious orders have become branches in the worldwide ecclesial institution. Becoming a monk or a nun means becoming a sort of employee for the worldwide ecclesial institution, because joining the religious order is by extension making a commitment to the ecclesial institution. I am not against religious life, but I do not believe in institutionalized religious life. As I said, the best I can do is ignore the Church as an institution, because the institution inevitably wants to control and manage everything, even your vocation.
[/quote]
Have you ever met one of the Renewal friars ?

Seriously.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/03/nyregion/soul-s-serenity-in-the-south-bronx.html

[MissyP89]

Era, brother, you have prayers from someone who is walking that desert right with you.

Though, I don't know...if your problem is with the institution, then why not just be who you are? The Church is hardly asking you to become some cookie cutter robot for the Holy See, parroting off encyclicals in Latin.

Sometimes the horror in the walls of our parishes can be enough to force us to bury our heads in our hands and weep. If He protects us so much, then where is He? Why are some people on higher rungs of the ladder than you and I allowed to crush the faith of the innocent?

I don't stay for the system, that's for darn sure. I actually tend to have a fair bit of distaste for the hierarchal arrogance and politicking in the Church.

But you know what, man? They're just people. Just like us. Why let them get to you? If you hate the system, live the Gospel with such incredible brilliance that people are blown away by your Catholicism. Give honor back to the name. It's what I try to do, if all I can affect is my tiny little corner of the universe. I don't like what I see, so by living my Faith boldly and speaking out against those who abuse it, I can carry some light.

Don't walk away. You say yourself that you believe in what the Church teaches...where can you go if not right here? And there is no happiness, no peace after you know all that and leave it. Home will always be home. Blaze a trail in the Church, and turn a blind eye to the people that get under your skin. Jesus did it with the Pharisees, after all.

Do you get along with your pastor? That might be part of the issue. Do you have someone you do respect in the Church who you can vent to? Just a few weeks ago, my chaplain at school shut us into his office and let me scream, cry, rant and swear about this very thing.

It's getting better now. I find that the more I let anger and doubt get to me, the worse I become. Focus on Him right now. Keep going to Mass and Confession. Let Him love on you for a while and shut out the rest of the world while He works.

You'll be okay. Just don't give up. *hugs*

Pax,
Melissa

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Era Might' date='05 March 2010 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1267771255' post='2066968']
As I said, I cannot work within the institution. That includes religious life, which has been institutionalized like everything else in the Church. Priests and religious are free labor for the ecclesial institution. The Church builds all kinds of institutions precisely because it has this free labor (e.g., nuns and Jesuits to run schooling institutions). The religious orders have become branches in the worldwide ecclesial institution. Becoming a monk or a nun means becoming a sort of employee for the worldwide ecclesial institution, because joining the religious order is by extension making a commitment to the ecclesial institution. I am not against religious life, but I do not believe in institutionalized religious life. As I said, the best I can do is ignore the Church as an institution, because the institution inevitably wants to control and manage everything, even your vocation.
[/quote]
I wouldn't say that institutions are the problem so much as bureaucracy is the problem, but I generally agree. People should join religious life to draw close to Christ and serve the Church, but the Church all too often takes religious out of authentic religious life to place them in positions where they are closer to the world than to Christ. Case in point: our school superintendent is usually seen as a nice lady in charge of all the schools and a decent organizer, but most people don't see her as a sister who ought to have ample time to pray instead of spending all day in an office.

[Winchester]

What, exactly, do you mean by "institution"? Trying to figure that out is a serious problem in understanding what you're saying is the problem. It seems to be a repulsion to governing bodies.