aalpha1989 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='Totus Tuus' date='02 March 2010 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1267560569' post='2065442'] We are not on the same page. I see condemning the Church's practice disrespectful. You don't. God bless you though! Pax. I really have no hard feelings, we simply do not agree. [/quote] It is not the practice of the Church, it is the practice of certain faithful who heed an indult which has been granted. Would you have condemned the move of the papacy to Avignon? Would you have condemned simony? Would you have condemned buying and selling of indulgences? Less than ideal practices are often prevalent in the Church, but it is not disrespectful to call them out. As Chesterton says, if you really love something you will never be blind to or allow its imperfections. That said, I don't completely agree with Apo. I think Communion can be legitimately received on the hand, just not in this day and age. The only result of this indult is decreased faith in the True Presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='CatherineM' date='01 March 2010 - 11:46 PM' timestamp='1267501604' post='2065129'] I don't receive on the tongue, so I figured most of you would also view my reception as disrespectful. [/quote] [quote name='aalpha1989' date='02 March 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1267560887' post='2065447'] The only result of this indult is decreased faith in the True Presence. [/quote] Appearently not disrepectful, you just have less faith in the True Presence. chin up. though!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Oh dear, how many threads have been started a long debate here on whether or not to receive on the hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='02 March 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1267561192' post='2065450'] Appearently not disrepectful, you just have less faith in the True Presence. chin up. though!!! [/quote] I didn't say every case. You cannot look around your average parish and tell me there is a great reverence for the Eucharist. Most Catholics today are surprised if you claim there [i]is [/i]a True Presence. Of course they've heard it before, but they still view it as a symbol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 No, you did not say every. You said only. [quote]The [b]only[/b] result of this indult is decreased faith in the True Presence.[/quote] (emphasis mine) So are you saying the only result of this indult is decreased faith in the True Presence, but not in every case. ?? If so, then it is not the [b]only[/b] result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='02 March 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1267561856' post='2065456'] No, you did not say every. You said only. (emphasis mine) So are you saying the only result of this indult is decreased faith in the True Presence, but not in every case. ?? If so, then it is not the [b]only[/b] result. [/quote] It is the only result. I don't believe that receiving on the hand has benefited anyone more than receiving on the tongue would have. You receive the amount of grace you are disposed to receive, whether you receive on the hand or on the tongue. The mode of reception does encourage a greater reverence, though. If that reverence is not encouraged, greater numbers of people will be less well-disposed. If our actions don't say "This is something so great I dare approach it only through grace", our souls are much less likely to say it. So yes, the only result of this indult is decreased faith. The grace present with the indult would be present without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 So if I choose to act on the indult and receive on the hand, I would somehow exhibit a decreased faith (either instantaneously or over time) in the Real Presence? since that the only result?? Am I understanding you correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='02 March 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1267562711' post='2065464'] So if I choose to act on the indult and receive on the hand, I would somehow exhibit a decreased faith (either instantaneously or over time) in the Real Presence? since that the only result?? Am I understanding you correctly? [/quote] No. Your actions just don't display the same interior humility, awe, etc. that receiving kneeling and on the tongue would. That doesn't mean you don't have it. I just think that when receiving on the hand a certain exterior [i]encouragement[/i] to that interior humility is missing, and I think it negatively affects the faithful in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tridenteen Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 JMJ I went to an English Mass Sunday, and was watching people recieve Communion. We came in late, so I couldn't recieve. It struck me how people come to Mass in the same clothes that they would probably wear to clean or mow the lawn, and then recieve Jesus in their hands, WIPE their hands on their jeans, and go slump in their pews with an air of boredom. Their were some incredibly devout people their, who had the shining look on their faces of people who knew and glorified the Holy Eucharist which they had just recieved, and rejoiced in worshiping Him Who Made Them. And then there are those who stay in Church long enough after Recieving to grab their coat and purse and rush out the door. Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='02 March 2010 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1267563083' post='2065468'] No. Your actions just don't display the same interior humility, awe, etc. that receiving kneeling and on the tongue would. That doesn't mean you don't have it. I just think that when receiving on the hand a certain exterior [i]encouragement[/i] to that interior humility is missing, and I think it negatively affects the faithful in general. [/quote] So if I receive on the hand, I don't display humility. Yet, I could be humble interiorly. I just would not display my humility. display. my humility. for others to see. on display. my humility. I think I understand what you are saying, but I think words like 'only' muddle and confuse what you are really saying, or how others could perceive you to say... I will pm you about it. Pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='Totus Tuus' date='02 March 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1267560569' post='2065442'] It is the practice of members of satanic cults to keep the Host in the mouth without swallowing it, and to take it out afterward in order to perform desecration (the horror of the thought!). [/quote] It is useless to debate about what Satanists will and not do in order to profane the Eucharist. I think this thread concerns the not infrequent profanations of Catholics such as the girl in this video. And I am with aalpha1989 on this one. I do think that the indult has fostered any benefit in the lives of the faithful. I do not think the indult is intrinsically opposed to respectful reception of the Eucharist, but as it is practiced it is more permissible to profanation by laxodaisical Catholics. The abrogation of the indult would not instantly solve anything, but I do think in the long haul it would have positive effects in fostering a more legitimate Eucharistic piety among the faithful. Additionally, reception the tongue would help remind protestants in attendance that CATHOLIC COMMUNION is something else entirely than their bread banquets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 (edited) [quote name='MIkolbe' date='02 March 2010 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1267563698' post='2065476'] So if I receive on the hand, I don't display humility. Yet, I could be humble interiorly. I just would not display my humility. display. my humility. for others to see. on display. my humility. I think I understand what you are saying, but I think words like 'only' muddle and confuse what you are really saying, or how others could perceive you to say... I will pm you about it. Pax. [/quote] I think the vilification of exterior signs of piety is at the heart of the dissolution of Catholic piety in general. My wife and I got into an argument over this a few weeks ago. Everyone who feels an interior humility is afraid to show it exteriorly because they don't want their external piety to be a scandal to the impiousness by which they are surrounded. There seems to be this palpable tension coming from many toward anyone who demonstrates external piety..as if they just assume the person is putting on a show and is completely spiritually dead inside. In a sense I find it ironic. No one wants to be judged for NOT putting on a show because they 'feel the Spirit inside' and then in the next moment in their mind they accuse the person wearing the veil or genuflecting before communion of spiritual hypocrisy and emptiness. If anyone chooses to see my exterior signs of piety as affectation, that's on their soul not mine. I will use my entire being to honor the Lord and this includes my body and the liturgical norms of the Church. Edited March 2, 2010 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='02 March 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1267563698' post='2065476'] So if I receive on the hand, I don't display humility. Yet, I could be humble interiorly. I just would not display my humility. display. my humility. for others to see. on display. my humility. [/quote] No, it's not about being on display, it's about your body externalizing your interior realities, which is what sacraments are all about. Sacraments are external signs of interior realities, and our bodies are meant to reflect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='02 March 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1267566501' post='2065522'] No, it's not about being on display, it's about your body externalizing your interior realities, which is what sacraments are all about. Sacraments are external signs of interior realities, and our bodies are meant to reflect that. [/quote] Yes. This notion is connected to the incarnational nature of Catholic worship and theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totus Tuus Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1267566148' post='2065515'] It is useless to debate about what Satanists will and not do in order to profane the Eucharist. I think this thread concerns the not infrequent profanations of Catholics such as the girl in this video.[/quote] Hmm, we weren't actually debating about what Satanists will and not do. I don't know if you caught my point (which is understandable, I am known to be an incoherent writer at times, and for that I apologize): my point was that ignorant/evil people will do bad things to the Eucharist because they are ignorant/evil, and that it is illogical to blame that fact on an indult. We clearly are very set in our disagreement, which is aaaabsolutely fine But I wanted to clarify that point because you seem to have misunderstood it. As far as I can tell, this thread is not about the infrequent profanations of Catholics, it is about the not infrequent profanations of the Eucharist (supposedly) caused by the indult of receiving communion in the hand. I don't think we have even confirmed that she is Catholic at all, have we? This thread is about how wrong it is that the Church has allowed something that some people don't agree with, and are using examples like this girl to back up their point. My stance is that that attitude is misguided (and illogical). God bless you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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