Communion In The Hand, And The Candidate's Girlfriend?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1267546106' post='2065290']
Apo, I love how the priest unveils the chalice immediately before giving Communion to the baby. Is this method of unveiling normal rubric?[/quote]
I have seen this done a lot, but I do not know if it is prescribed by the typikon.

[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1267546106' post='2065290']
Also, why did the priest tap the bottom of the chalice on the baby's forehead post-reception?[/quote]
This is done as a type of blessing. An adult will usually kiss the base of the chalice.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Luigi' date='01 March 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1267507169' post='2065179']
Millions of people receive communion in the hand daily, and do it reverently. The problem is with the individual, not with the mode of delivery.

It is a logical fallacy to blame an individual's action on a Catican Council that took place before she was born (from the look of her). Individuals did irreverent things before the Vatican Council, and they continue to do them after it. The particular name of this particular logical fallacy is "antes hoc, ergo propter hoc." I'll leave it to the Latin scholars to explain.
[/quote]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there bob. No one in this thread has mentioned the Vatican Council except you so your assertion of logical fallacy is without impetus and presumes this is the basis of the more traditional poster's opinions on the proper method of reception. Cyril of Jerusalem in the 4th century directed that in receiving communion on the hand one should use their "left hand as a throne for their right hand which receives the King." Obviously there exists within the Catholic tradition legitimate arguments for reception on the hand as well as reception on the tongue. That said, I am indeed of the opinion that the almost-over-night transition from solely receiving on the tongue to receiving on the hand by the directive of local bishops contributed in part to the decline in Eucharistic devotion, belief in the Real Presence, and emphasis on the sacredness of the Blessed Sacrament. I do not blame the 2nd Vatican Council, but instead I have reservations concerning the wisdom of such abrupt and concurrent liturgical changes propelled by the zeal of bishops in many diocese which left the faithful liturgically and doctrinally confused. Couple this with the unavoidable changes in social mores and the secularization of the West and its not hard to see how the abrupt transition to reception on the hand may have been in part an associated factor in the declining Eucharistic emphasis. I would argue that the Eucharistic piety of the community is in large part a causative factor in the individual development of Eucharistic devotion and respect.

I would never look down my nose on someone for receiving on the hand with the devotion preached by Cyril of Jerusalem especially considering the fact that the Church has specifically allowed this mode of reception. This woman did not use her left hand as a throne but instead had it recoiled like a viper waiting for the priest to let it go so criticism of her actions are legitimate in my opinion. I myself no longer receive on the hand for multiple reasons including the reasons I've elucidated thus far. [i][b][u][size="5"]Everything [/size][/u][/b][/i]we do with our bodies at the liturgy reflects doctrine and has pedagogical value in the inculcation of doctrine in the young. Lex orandi, lex credendi. In my opinion, reception on the tongue is a clearer gestural demonstration of Catholic doctrine to the individual which will aid in the formation of individual Eucharistic piety across a community.

I resent your positing that my or other's concerns arise simply out of illogical disgruntlement over this or that Council.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Veridicus

[brightsadness]

Reverence comes from within, I think, actions flow from this.

[Apotheoun]

During the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the priest shows the people the chalice containing the body and blood of Christ just before the rite of holy communion and chants (or if there is a deacon present he chants):

"Approach with the fear of God and with faith."

To which the people respond by singing:

"Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord: God the Lord has revealed Himself to us."

Then the reception of communion by the faithful follows under both kinds using a golden spoon.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Tridenteen' date='01 March 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1267492244' post='2065025']
shall we think of up various punishments for the presidential candidate's girlfriend?
[/quote]

[quote name='Tridenteen' date='01 March 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1267500564' post='2065111']
Now, who would like to think up various forms of public penance for this terribly dillusional woman?
[/quote]


I see no reason for punishment. She is obviously uncatechized and has been impoverished of proper spiritual development by her family, priest, and faith community.

What she needs, in my opinion, is a strong demonstration of Eucharistic piety by those present who understand the doctrines of the Church. Perhaps the priest or someone who attends Mass with her can charitably catechize her on what CATHOLICS believe about the Eucharist and why such respect is due to the Blessed Sacrament. It may lead to a rift in their relationship with her, but short of the Magesterium requiring greater gestural signs of devotion in the liturgy, I see this personal testimony and willingness to catechize as the best option for remedying the paucity of Eucharistic devotion in the Church.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Veridicus

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 March 2010 - 10:25 AM' timestamp='1267547101' post='2065297']
[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 10:08 AM' timestamp='1267546106' post='2065290']
Apo, I love how the priest unveils the chalice immediately before giving Communion to the baby. Is this method of unveiling normal rubric?
[/quote]
I have seen this done a lot, but I do not know if it is prescribed by the typikon.
[/quote]

I really like this. It reminds me of the unveiling of a bride in the Nuptial ceremony.

[mcts]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 March 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1267545138' post='2065283']
Correct. The mysteries of initiation are given at the same time to a baby, and from that moment forward the baby will received holy communion on a regular basis.
[/quote]

What's the point of confirmation, then? (I realize that that question could be taken as rude, but I promise that I mean it in the most polite fashion)

[Veridicus]

[quote name='mcts' date='02 March 2010 - 10:46 AM' timestamp='1267548402' post='2065310']
What's the point of confirmation, then? (I realize that that question could be taken as rude, but I promise that I mean it in the most polite fashion)
[/quote]

The full outpouring of the Holy Spirit I believe. They refer to it as 'chrismation' (that is they apply the Holy Chrism oil) rather than emphasizing the intellectual 'confirmatory' element we focus in the West.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Veridicus

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mcts' date='02 March 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1267548402' post='2065310']
What's the point of confirmation, then? (I realize that that question could be taken as rude, but I promise that I mean it in the most polite fashion)
[/quote]
Confirmation, or, as we call it, Chrismation, is the giving of the grace of the royal priesthood, which along with the reception of holy communion completes a person's sacramental initiation; thus making the children of Christian parents full and complete Christians from the eighth (or fortieth) day after their birth.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 March 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1267548704' post='2065314']
Confirmation, or, as we call it, Chrismation, is the giving of the grace of the royal priesthood, which along with the reception of holy communion completes a person's sacramental initiation; thus making the children of Christian parents full and complete Christians from the eighth (or fortieth) day after their birth.
[/quote]

How do Easterners view the emphasis on the intellectual aspect of Chrismation in the West?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 09:47 AM' timestamp='1267548473' post='2065313']
The full outpouring of the Holy Spirit I believe. They refer to it as 'chrismation' (that is they apply the Holy Chrism oil) rather than emphasizing the intellectual 'confirmatory' element we focus in the West.
[/quote]
Yes. Eastern Christians do not see the mystery of chrismation as a teenage rite of passage, but as the grace fulfilled completion of a person's initiation into the Church.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1267548812' post='2065316']
How do Easterners view the emphasis on the intellectual aspect of Chrismation in the West?
[/quote]
The requirement that a child born of Christian parents go through a long intellectual formation prior to the reception of the mysteries of initiation is foreign to our tradition. A process of catechesis will still take place, but it is not required of children born of Christian parents in order to receive the mysteries of initiation, which according to our tradition should never be separated from each other because they form a single rite.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 March 2010 - 10:53 AM' timestamp='1267548816' post='2065317']
Yes. Eastern Christians do not see the mystery of chrismation as a teenage rite of passage, but as the grace fulfilled completion of a person's initiation into the Church.
[/quote]

So in the East Chrismation is more like the third part of the way that Baptism replaced the circumcision of the Old Law (hence its infant application)?

Would that mean that in the West, Confirmation is more associated with the Bar Mitzvah type teenage rite of passage?

I'm just brainstorming here todd.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Veridicus

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1267549025' post='2065321']
So in the East Chrismation is more like the third part of the way that Baptism replaced the circumcision of the Old Law (hence its infant application)?[/quote]
Chrismation with holy myron is the seal of baptism, and so, according to our tradition, these two mysteries must always be done together, followed - of course - by the reception of holy communion because they are ordered to each other. To be baptized without chrismation is to be an incomplete Christian.

[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1267549025' post='2065321']
Would that mean that in the West, Confirmation has more associated with the Bah Mitzvah type teenage rite of passage?[/quote]
Perhaps. But I do not think that that is the intention. If my memory serves me Pope Benedict has written on the subject and has talked about the fact that chrismation (confirmation) should precede the reception of holy communion even in the Latin Church.

[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1267549025' post='2065321']
I'm just brainstorming here todd.[/quote]
Nothing wrong with that.

[Hilde]

Disrespectful.