Guest AMDGHouston Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Ok, I am working on a project for my parish. I feel that unfortunately many Catholics have fallen off from believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I firmly believe in it and believe in my ability to defend it as well. However, for this project I am actually seeking a solid argument against the Eucharist. If anyone needs additional detail as to why I am looking for arguments against the Eucharist I will be happy to explain in e-mail. My end goal is to further belief in the Eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='AMDGHouston' date='24 February 2010 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1267073133' post='2062737'] Ok, I am working on a project for my parish. I feel that unfortunately many Catholics have fallen off from believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I firmly believe in it and believe in my ability to defend it as well. However, for this project I am actually seeking a solid argument against the Eucharist. If anyone needs additional detail as to why I am looking for arguments against the Eucharist I will be happy to explain in e-mail. My end goal is to further belief in the Eucharist. [/quote] Don't ask Reyb. You'll end up wanting to rip out your own hair and use it to tie a noose to hang yourself. In my opinion, your best bet would be to find an old text, say something written during the Protestant schism. That way you'll have right there a solid and clearly influential piece of writing, and no doubt you'll also have a direct Catholic response to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1267075016' post='2062758'] In my opinion, your best bet would be to find an old text, say something written during the Protestant schism. That way you'll have right there a solid and clearly influential piece of writing, and no doubt you'll also have a direct Catholic response to it. [/quote] Or cite Luther...even he believed in the real presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='24 February 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1267075196' post='2062763'] Or cite Luther...even he believed in the real presence. [/quote] Did he start to descend into consubstantiation as his 'reformation' gained momentum, or am I getting confused with someone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 February 2010 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1267075331' post='2062765'] Did he start to descend into consubstantiation as his 'reformation' gained momentum, or am I getting confused with someone else? [/quote] He probably did. He descended further and further into the guano pit of crazy as the years passed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='24 February 2010 - 11:26 PM' timestamp='1267075571' post='2062769'] He probably did. He descended further and further into the guano pit of crazy as the years passed... [/quote] That's what I had thought. I know he started off at a point that was nearly compatible with Catholicism, then got worse and worse as it started to catch on. It's really too bad that he hadn't been more prudent and waited to have some real talks with the hierarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I hear John Wycliffe and to a lesser extent Jan Hus had condemned views on the Eucharist. Apparently this was all addressed at the council of Constance. If you could find documents from both sides (which- I apologize- I'm too lazy to make even a cursory search for) you'd have some pretty solid material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1267075016' post='2062758'] Don't ask Reyb. You'll end up wanting to rip out your own hair and use it to tie a noose to hang yourself. [/quote] Ooh! Meanie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) double. Edited February 25, 2010 by MissyP89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='AMDGHouston' date='24 February 2010 - 11:45 PM' timestamp='1267073133' post='2062737'] Ok, I am working on a project for my parish. I feel that unfortunately many Catholics have fallen off from believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I firmly believe in it and believe in my ability to defend it as well. However, for this project I am actually seeking a solid argument against the Eucharist. If anyone needs additional detail as to why I am looking for arguments against the Eucharist I will be happy to explain in e-mail. My end goal is to further belief in the Eucharist. [/quote] Okay. I will stand on these arguments: first, the presence of Christ in the Eucharist is founded on ‘belief’ and no more than that, and second, according to the scripture, Jesus body is from heaven while this ‘sacramental bread’ is from oven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='MissyP89' date='25 February 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1267079472' post='2062793'] [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 February 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1267075016' post='2062758'] Don't ask Reyb. You'll end up wanting to rip out your own hair and use it to tie a noose to hang yourself. [/quote] Ooh! Meanie. [/quote] Yeah I'll say he's mean, he's just teasing us people who don't have much hair. But if does rip his hair out let me know so I can come and get some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='AMDGHouston' date='24 February 2010 - 11:45 PM' timestamp='1267073133' post='2062737'] Ok, I am working on a project for my parish. I feel that unfortunately many Catholics have fallen off from believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I firmly believe in it and believe in my ability to defend it as well. However, for this project I am actually seeking a solid argument against the Eucharist. If anyone needs additional detail as to why I am looking for arguments against the Eucharist I will be happy to explain in e-mail. My end goal is to further belief in the Eucharist. [/quote] The problem you are trying to address goes beyond belief in the Real Presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='AMDGHouston' date='24 February 2010 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1267073133' post='2062737'] Ok, I am working on a project for my parish. I feel that unfortunately many Catholics have fallen off from believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I firmly believe in it and believe in my ability to defend it as well. However, for this project I am actually seeking a solid argument against the Eucharist. If anyone needs additional detail as to why I am looking for arguments against the Eucharist I will be happy to explain in e-mail. My end goal is to further belief in the Eucharist. [/quote] I don't really peddle in arguments against the Eucharist. Sorry. I would assume a materialist's approach would suffice: all senses and physicality fails us. It looks and feels and tastes like a host. If I were planning an argument for the Real Presence, I would DEFINITELY work in some lines from Thomas Aquinas's Eucharistic Hymns ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pange_Lingua_Gloriosi_Corporis_Mysterium"]Pange Lingua Gloriosi Corporis Mysterium[/url],[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoro_te_devote"]Adoro te Devote[/url], [url="http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/LaudaSion.html"]Lauda Sion[/url], [url="http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/SacrisSol.html"]Sacris Solemniis[/url], & [url="http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/VerbumSup.html"]Verbum Supernum[/url]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AMDGHouston Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' date='25 February 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1267121725' post='2062898'] I don't really peddle in arguments against the Eucharist. Sorry. I would assume a materialist's approach would suffice: all senses and physicality fails us. It looks and feels and tastes like a host. Verdicus, my purpose is actually to further belief in the Eucharist. We are writing a courtroom argument, complete with expert witnesses, I.E. church Fathers, apostles, etc. I'm a seeking to develop the most solid (although, as we know, completely inadequate) debate against the Real Presence of the Eucharist. Reyb, I appreciate your input and if you would like to contribute further I would appreciate it as you seem to have the strongest belief against the Eucharist being the Real Presence of Christ our Lord and Savior. I suspect a lot of what you would give me would be very useful. However, know that my purpose is to use that argument to further people's beliefs in it. The choice to participate in the exercise is yours. Thanks for the start guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 I do not think Martin Luther discounted the true presence, he was even buried with his rosary. I seem to remember that came later, after the anglican split, out of a jealousy of being denied through scripture and tradition of the right to claim their protestant cult was a true church of Christ and could offer a valid sacrament. These theolgical arguments were always won by catholic theologians using sacred scripture, which is part reason why king james decreed the bible be edited. As for Luther he tried to recant and be taken back into the church on his deathbed and was refused. This had nothing to do with his original 95 theses, which did upset church hierarchy greatly, rather his defiance turned to what many has defined as madness. He allowed a king to marry again on a special decree he granted for political reasons so the king could create an heir thus making the king a bigamist, he also became so enraged at his excommunication he commisioned a "scatolgical" cartoonist to create very base and crude cartoons about the holy see and the pope in particular. he also came to beleive that religious women, or nuns, should be serving bishops and priests as if they were married to them. He basically sealed his own fate by his actions as we all do, its debatable as to why he was not allowed Penance and Reconcilliation, most likely as in most disputes, the views of men were put before the will of God. ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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