The Jihad Against The Jihadis

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1267042802' post='2062533']
It is true that Christ never told his followers to kill non-believers. Christians just take it upon themselves to kill non-believers, and claim that somehow they're acting within Christ's teaching. Then after a few centuries, after they've taken your land and subjugated your people, the Christians tell you to forget the past. Unfortunately, the past goes on repeating itself (e.g., by modern Christians who hide their desire for a "holy war" behind a veneer of American patriotism).

At least the violent Muslims admit to their violent intentions. Christians will destroy you in the name of Christ and tell you that they're only trying to help you. With friends like Christians, who needs enemies?
[/quote]
Again, where have I said that Christians have been perfect. Who exactly are you talking to? Your posts seem to be an attempt to convince yourself of your position.

I stand by what I have said: Christ never told his followers to kill non-Christians in order to spread the faith, and so when this has been done in the past it is a terrible crime, while Mohammed - on the other hand - encouraged violence, and PERSONALLY fought in many battles and wars to spread his vile religion.

Please stop confusing the failures of Christians with the doctrine of Christianity . . . the former are clearly fallible imperfect beings, while the latter is a teaching that comes directly from God incarnate and is as pure as the driven snow.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1267042802' post='2062533']
It is true that Christ never told his followers to kill non-believers. Christians just take it upon themselves to kill non-believers, and they do so by claiming that somehow they're acting within Christ's teaching. Then after a few centuries, after they've taken your land and subjugated your people, the Christians tell you to forget the past. Unfortunately, the past goes on repeating itself (e.g., by modern Christians who hide their desire for a "holy war" behind a veneer of American patriotism).

At least the violent Muslims admit to their violent intentions. Christians will destroy you in the name of Christ and tell you that they're only trying to help you. With friends like Christians, who needs enemies?
[/quote]


Era, you lost me here, name one instance of christians killing people and claiming it was Christ's will?

ed

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='24 February 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1267043214' post='2062536']
i find it absurd that "Christians" on phatmass are quick to criticize Christians and Christianity in the hopes of defending muslim violence...


...weird...

I agree with both Ed and Apo...the article does seem to be slanted in a political way...if muslim leaders really want to end the violence of their more extremists bretheren, they need to address and repudiate the violence advocated by their founder...which in a sense will never happen, because then, islam will truly cease to exist...
[/quote]
I am shocked by it too. I have never said that Christians are perfect, on the contrary, I have admitted that Christians - myself included - often fail to live up to the teaching of Christ. The difference between Christianity and Islam is not to be found in the fallible and imperfect human beings who compose the membership of those religions, but in the teachings of the founders of the two groups. Christ, true God and true man, never told His followers to kill non-believers, while Mohammed not only taught his followers to do that very thing, but he himself PERSONALLY fought in many battles and wars in order to spread his religious ideology.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='24 February 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1267043277' post='2062538']
Era, you lost me here, name one instance of christians killing people and claiming it was Christ's will?

ed
[/quote]
Are you serious? Read the history of the colonization of the Americas.

It wasn't Muslims who enslaved Africans in the United States.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='24 February 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1267043277' post='2062538']
Era, you lost me here, name one instance of christians killing people and claiming it was Christ's will?

ed
[/quote]
Frankly, I think Era is having a conversation with himself . . . in which he is trying to figure out what his own position is.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1267043225' post='2062537']Please stop confusing the failures of Christians with the doctrine of Christianity . . . the former are clearly fallible imperfect beings, while the latter is a teaching that comes directly from God incarnate and is as pure as the driven snow.
[/quote]
I have not said anything about the doctrine of Christianity. The Gospel is the only thing that can save the world. And that is precisely why Christians scare me more than Muslims. At least Muslims don't claim to be following the Gospel. Christians do claim to be following the Gospel, and then Christians go on to destroy peoples and wage wars and enslave and colonize in the name of so-called "Christian" civilization. Christians pervert the only thing that can save the world (i.e., they pervert the Gospel), which is what makes Christians so scary.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1267043558' post='2062542']
Are you serious? Read the history of the colonization of the Americas.

It wasn't Muslims who enslaved Africans in the United States.
[/quote]
Era,

Did Christ tell His followers to colonize any region on earth? I do not think so. Did Christ tell His followers to treat some human beings as less than human? Nope.

By the way, Muslims participated in the slave trade, and there were slaves in the Islamic world prior to the colonization of the Americas by the Europeans.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1267043699' post='2062545']
I have not said anything about the doctrine of Christianity. The Gospel is the only thing that can save the world. Which is precisely why Christians scare me more than Muslims. At least Muslims don't claim to be following the Gospel. Christians do claim to be following the Gospel, and then they destroy peoples and wage wars and enslave and colonize in the name of so-called "Christian" civilization.
[/quote]
I know Era. You ignore what I am saying, which involves making a distinction between the imperfect men who are the disciples of Christ and the perfect doctrine which Christ taught.

Always remember, the Church is sinless, but her members are sinners in constant need of reform. Pope John Paul II made that clear several years ago when he apologized for the evil actions of Christians throughout history, but you will note that Pope John Paul II never said that the Church was evil. She - of course - is the spotless bride of Christ, who cannot sin, for she is His body, while in her members she must always be open to purification and reformation. (Edit: [i]Era, as a Catholic you should know about this theological doctrine[/i]).

I simply refuse to dumb things down by not distinguishing between Christ's teaching and the failures of His followers to keep His teaching.

On the other hand, when a Muslim violently saws off the head of a Christian who refuses to apostatize from his faith in Christ, he (i.e., the Muslim) is following the teaching and practice of Mohammed.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1267043714' post='2062546']
Era,

Did Christ tell His followers to colonize any region on earth? I do not think so. Did Christ tell His followers to treat some human beings as less than human? Nope.

By the way, Muslims participated in the slave trade, and there were slaves in the Islamic world prior to the colonization of the Americas by the Europeans.
[/quote]
No, Christ did not tell his followers to colonize anyone. Which makes it so curious that a civilization that prided itself on being Christian could so egregiously act contrary to Christ's teaching.

You illustrate my point when you say that Muslims participated in the slave trade. Christians are supposed to be the light of the world. Yet historically, they are indistinguishable from Muslims. And yet I'm supposed to be afraid of Muslims?

If you get rid of Muslim violence, you will not suddenly find peace, because (as history shows) Christians are all too willing to commit violence in the name of Christ.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1267044131' post='2062549']
No, Christ did not tell his followers to colonize anyone. Which makes it so curious that a civilization that prided itself on being Christian could so egregiously act contrary to Christ's teaching.

You illustrate my point when you say that Muslims participated in the slave trade. Christians are supposed to be the light of the world. Yet historically, they are indistinguishable from Muslims. And yet I'm supposed to be afraid of Muslims?[/quote]
I haven't illustrated any of your points, because your points have almost nothing to do with what I am saying.

Here is the difference that you evidently cannot grasp:

[size="4"]Christians have been violent and in acting that way they have betrayed Christ.

Muslims have been violent and in acting that way they have been faithful to Mohammed.[/size]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1267044131' post='2062549']
If you get rid of Muslim violence, you will not suddenly find peace, because (as history shows) Christians are all too willing to commit violence in the name of Christ.[/quote]
Era, there will not be perfect peace until the eschaton, and you should know that, but a world in which Muslims renounced the violence advocated by Mohammed would be a far more peaceful place than the world is today.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1267043921' post='2062548']I simply refuse to dumb things down by not distinguishing between Christ's teaching and the failures of His followers to keep His teaching.[/quote]
I agree with that distinction. Which is why I am so scared of Christians, because historically they have so egregiously contrary to Christ's teaching, and yet they consider "Christian civilization" as some kind of glorious past which they contrast with Muslim civilization. Historically, I can't tell much of a difference between Christian and Muslim civilization. That is why I refuse to buy into this hysteria over a Muslim bogeyman. "Christian civilization" scares me enough.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1267044522' post='2062552']
I agree with that distinction. Which is why I am so scared of Christians, because historically they have so egregiously contrary to Christ's teaching, and yet they consider "Christian civilization" as some kind of glorious past which they contrast with Muslim civilization. Historically, I can't tell much of a difference between Christian and Muslim civilization. That is why I refuse to buy into this hysteria over a Muslim bogeyman. "Christian civilization" scares me enough.
[/quote]
Era,

For a quietist you certainly do worry a lot.

God bless.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1267044401' post='2062550']Era, there will not be perfect peace until the eschaton, and you should know that, but a world in which Muslims renounced the violence advocated by Mohammed would be a far more peaceful place than the world is today.
[/quote]
I agree that the world would be much more peaceful if Muslims renounced violence in the name of Mohammed.

And the world would also be a lot more peaceful if Christians renounced violence done in the name of Christ.

Violence by Christians worries me more than violence by Muslims. The violent Muslims at least don't claim to be my friend, and they don't claim to be representing the Son of God.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' date='24 February 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1267044522' post='2062552']
Historically, I can't tell much of a difference between Christian and Muslim civilization. That is why I refuse to buy into this hysteria over a Muslim bogeyman. "Christian civilization" scares me enough.
[/quote]
I do not care about a "Muslim bogeyman"; instead, I am concerned about the openly heretical nature of Islam, and that it has kept millions (billions) of people away from salvation in Christ.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 February 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1267044639' post='2062553']
Era,

For a quietist you certainly do worry a lot.

God bless.
[/quote]
The perversion of the Gospel is a worryful thing. In some sense, it is the only thing worth worrying about.