The Be-All End-All Muslim Thread

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='03 March 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1267668907' post='2066254']
I know plenty of protestants who busy themselves with calling everything "false religion" and "cult." And then the "false religion" label is also affixed to non-protestant Christian faiths, too -- including Catholicism.[/quote]
Those protestants are correct in saying that there is only one true religion and all others are false. They are just mistaken as to which religion is Christ's True Church. They are absolutely correct in saying that all non-Christian religions are false religions. The Catholic Church has been saying the same thing since long before the Protestant Revolt.

Those same protestants worship Jesus Christ and read the Bible, too. Are Catholics to avoid those activities as well?

What is incorrect (and illogical) is to claim with liberal protestants and the UU that many conflicting religions are all true.

[quote]It seems just as counter productive as Republicans who busy themselves purging the party of "false Republicans" ... until the next GOP convention can be held in Newt's living room.
[/quote]
Bad comparison. The Church is not a political party. Political parties regularly compromise and change beliefs in order to get as many different people under the same tent as possible without losing key constituents. This often means trying to appeal to people with opposing beliefs (prolifers and "pro-choicers," libertarians and those who want more government spending on their pet projects, etc.) (And we wonder why both major parties are such a mess!)

Unlike political parties, the Church can never compromise truth in order to broaden its appeal.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='05 March 2010 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1267718900' post='2066459']
This is perhaps the best post in this entire thread, and if I could give it several more positive points I would.
[/quote]

Depends on what you are basing your point on. If it's for correct grammar and sentence structure I would be inclined to agree. But from a Christian view point and sound logic I prefer the following.

[quote name='organwerke' date='04 March 2010 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1267695667' post='2066383']
I don't agree with the conclusion you arrive with the words I bolded.
In a previous post you said
[i]Of course, if we never tell people the Truth, there's the chance they won't come to it, anyway. If we act like all religions are just fine, what's the motivation (apart from pork ribs and beer) to swap religions?[/i]
and I completely agree with you, but what truth are you referring to?
If you start speaking with a Muslim saying that Mohammed is a false prophete you are saying a true thing but you aren't yet telling The Truth.
The Muslim can think: ok, I believe in a false prophete, now I know a true thing, but so I ask: what is the Truth?
So, as you arrived to a conclusion (the bold statement) that can't be proved, I could arrive to the conclusion (that can't be proved too) that if your first approach with a Muslim is to saying him that Mohammed is a false prophete, your first intention is not that of telling him The Truth but only to tell him that he is wrong.
[u]If I say that Jesus is the Lord and the Truth himself and if I say that Mohamed is a false prophete I'm saying two true things, but the first one is preferable and I prefer starting by it, because the first one is an affirmative of a true thing while the second one is an affirmative of a false thing.
The first statement also contains the second one and only from the first statement I can get easily to the obvious conclusion that if Jesus is the only Truth, Islam and every other religion are false (and so the first statement contains "more truth" than the second one but also "less judgements" on the persons), while if I start from the second statement I can't so easily arrive to the conclusion that Jesus is the Only Truth if I don't know him or if I know only few imperfect things about him, and I can also more easily think that the first intention of the speaker is that of judging me.[/u]
[/quote]

The underlined is brilliant and not only is it brilliant it is probably what Jesus himself would say.

[Winchester]

There is not a single logical flaw in my post.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='05 March 2010 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1267748799' post='2066765']
There is not a single logical flaw in my post.
[/quote]

We differ in that opinion, that's why us brothers fight. And we're having a point competition to see who can give their friends the most points. Maybe some balloons and some crayons would be fun!

[Winchester]

Point out the flaw in logic, then. Maybe I'm missing something.

And I give points according to special rules I make up every day using a koran, hamster and a bag of pork rinds.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote]We're not badgering atheist friends,
[/quote]
I explained to you my experiences were with atheists because I don't have any interaction with Muslims. I can't see why I cannot compare the two cases, so your statement becomes impotent. If 'Organwerke' starts her day telling her Muslims students that their religion is false and has a false prophet they are going to be confused, hurt and upset. Sooner or later she is going to be in deep trouble and will not have imparted any truth because they will resent her badgering them and will dislike her.

[quote]we're discussing Islam amongst Catholics.[/quote]
This sentence is incorrect because there are not just Catholics on this forum and we are of late discussing the proper method of relating truth to a member of another religion. I don't discuss Islam and never have because I know very little about it. I am more interested in serving my own faith.

[quote]And I'm astute enough to know that different tactics are called for at different times. At no time should I hide or avoid the truth. At no time should I give into the desire for false peace by using bad philosophy and not acknowledging the difference between the believer and his belief.
[/quote]
Here you are just blowing bubbles. No one has suggested that you hide the truth for niceties. And there is never a case for bluntness which will obviously result in an outcome opposite to what is being attempted. Our philosophy is correct because Jesus said whatever you do for another you also do for him. If I lead a person to him by sound tactic and good philosophy, then I will have given that person love and thus expressed my love for Jesus. On the other hand if I use bad tactics which results in the person hating me and my religion and they will do this if I tell them strait out that their religion and their prophet is bull, I have not only lead them away from truth but I have also hurt them and as a result inflicted pain on Christ.

[quote]You seem to imply that the only option in telling the truth is "badgering". I reject that. [/quote]
I've argued for the opposite actually!

[quote]I reject also the notion that human behavior will fully determine conversion. If such is the case, then we are culpable for every failure to convert and there is no act of God involved in conversion. It also makes us wholly responsible for all succesful conversions.
[/quote]
I agree with you here and maybe your friends point is valid for this, but you also shot yourself in the foot because you claim you are telling truth to lead when in actual fact you are now saying that the Holy Spirit is behind conversion. On this I agree I would never lay claim to having converted anyone. Our RCIA candidates are brought to us by the baptism of fire which the Holy Spirit imparted to them. We tell them about our truth and demonstrate it by our love for them and it's not by telling them that their old religion was false and would have lead them to hell. We ignore the past and work to their future, full communion in Christ at Easter.

[quote]I repeat: There is a difference between a believer and his beliefs and I am under absolutely no obligation as a Catholic to say a belief is beautiful when that belief is false. I am under no Catholic obligation to praise a religion made by man. I can respect the believer while not paying homage to his religion or merely acknowledging its good aspects, which I've already pointed out from a Catholic perspective do not belong to the religion itself.
[/quote]
Has anyone suggested you should admire Islam. I would not praise a Muslims entire religion. I might say "It's nice the way you revere Jesus but he is more than that you know" I might say. "You really show love of God in 5 prayers a day." There are many Catholics that pray more often than this but there is also a great number only go to Mass just in case there is something in this Jesus thing.

So I see your entire post as flawed mainly because it omits the love of Christ. I pray everyday that those of you who have had bad experiences with Muslims will not allow it to cloud your vision of Christ.
Peace be with you

[quote name='Winchester' date='05 March 2010 - 11:50 AM' timestamp='1267750202' post='2066774']
And I give points according to special rules I make up every day using a koran, hamster and a bag of pork rinds.
[/quote]

Your joke is very funny but it is also very sad because it is hollow and empty of Christ

Edited March 5, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='04 March 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1267755282' post='2066824']
Your joke is very funny but it is also very sad because it is hollow and empty of Christ
[/quote]
[img]http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050201/050201_simpsons_vmed_3p.widec.jpg[/img]

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Socrates' date='04 March 2010 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1267737707' post='2066669']
Bad comparison. The Church is not a political party.
[/quote]
That's what I was saying. The Catholic Church is a political party.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Socrates' date='04 March 2010 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1267737707' post='2066669']
Those same protestants worship Jesus Christ and read the Bible, too. Are Catholics to avoid those activities as well?
[/quote]
Yes.

[Lounge Daddy]

You can go around and point to everyone and say "false religion!" and "evil" if you want. I just think that's a terrible starting point, and, to me, it seems like a protestant thing to do.

Maybe I just know far too many protestants who do that, and include even Catholics under that heading ... and all it does is make them feel more right. It doesn't seem to win hearts and minds. And it implies that everyone following these "evil" and "false religions" are condemning themselves to hell -- also a protestant tendency.

I'm a Catholic because I believe it is the fullness of truth. That's different than saying that I am a Catholic because I think there is zero truth to be found elsewhere. I am a Catholic because I believe that it is the easiest path to heaven. I am not a Catholic because I think it is the exclusive path to heaven.

Judge and condemn and point fingers if you want. Maybe it makes you feel better, and more right. It's not for me.

[Lounge Daddy]

While you're at it, lure some more Muslims over here so that you can call Islam a false religion and evil, and throw pictures of Jesus on the cross at them and ask for their reaction.

And then you can shrug and wonder why they didn't convert.
Unless of course, your entire goal is to feel so very correct about yourselves -- which I think it is.

Peace.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='05 March 2010 - 04:24 PM' timestamp='1267831482' post='2067276']
That's what I was saying. The Catholic Church is a political party.
[/quote]
The Catholic Church is the body of Christ, and not a political party.

[Winchester]

Your devotion to anarchy (which is not Catholi) is clouding your vision.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='05 March 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1267831482' post='2067276']
That's what I was saying. The Catholic Church is a political party.
[/quote]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='05 March 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1267831562' post='2067277']
Yes.
[/quote]
I can only pray you're being sarcastic here.


[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='05 March 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1267832201' post='2067281']
You can go around and point to everyone and say "false religion!" and "evil" if you want. I just think that's a terrible starting point, and, to me, it seems like a protestant thing to do.

Maybe I just know far too many protestants who do that, and include even Catholics under that heading ... and all it does is make them feel more right. It doesn't seem to win hearts and minds. And it implies that everyone following these "evil" and "false religions" are condemning themselves to hell -- also a protestant tendency.

I'm a Catholic because I believe it is the fullness of truth. That's different than saying that I am a Catholic because I think there is zero truth to be found elsewhere. I am a Catholic because I believe that it is the easiest path to heaven. I am not a Catholic because I think it is the exclusive path to heaven.

Judge and condemn and point fingers if you want. Maybe it makes you feel better, and more right. It's not for me.
[/quote]
This wasn't about going up to Muslims and telling them their religion is false and evil, but about Catholics praising and defending the false religion of Mohammed (which, as we all agree, denies Christ's divinity and role of Savior) to other Catholics.

The fact remains that [i]Extra Ecclesiam Nola Salu[/i]s still stands. Outside Christ's Church, there is no salvation. To be saved, one must be baptized into the Church, either sacramentally, or by blood or desire. We leave judgment of whether individual Muslims may be saved to God; but as was pointed out, if any Muslims are saved, it is [i]in spite of[/i] their allegiance to Islam, not [i]because of[/i] it. Men are saved only by Christ. No one is saved by Islam.
Christ is the [i]only[/i] Way to salvation, not simply one of many ways, or the best way. To say otherwise is the heresy of religious indifferentism.

In dealing with Muslims, I wouldn't go up to them and tell them their religion is false, but I would not say it is true or praise it. I would instead insist that the Gospel of Christ is true.
It's not necessary to tell Muslims their religion is false. They are already quite aware we as Christians believe that, just as Muslims regard Christians as infidels. They are smart enough to know our two religions are contrary to one another. Pretending that both religions are somehow true is fundamentally dishonest, does nothing to advance Christ, and merely insults the intelligence of the Muslim.

For all your finger-wagging about "judging" and "finger-pointing," you're mighty quick to judge the motives of those of us on here calling Islam false. But, if it makes you feel better, and gives you the politically-correct "ecumenical" warm-fuzzies of knowing you're better than all us backwards unenlightened neanderthals, then go ahead.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Socrates

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='03 March 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1267658889' post='2066204']
Jesus was crucified because of the fact that the Jews saw him as a threat to their power. They wished to rule by their man made laws rather than the laws of love which Jesus was teaching. The Christians were fed to the lions because the Romans saw there emperor as a deity and he was insanely jealous of the idea of a greater authority. 2000 years ago were cruel and barbaric times. Authority was in the habit of ruling by savagery. People were not ready for Jesus words of love and kindness to your neighbour.
If I had a Muslim friend and I wanted to convert them. To say to them that your prophet is false and so is your religion would be an absolutely stupid approach and it's not exactly true. We can easily justify it by arguing that any religion not based on Jesus words is false but it's still a stupid approach. Muslims revere Jesus PBUH and they love God. In all honesty one would have to say they are closer to truth than most alternate religions or atheists.
[/quote]

No, Jesus was Crucified because He is the TRUTH, the WAY and the LIFE...and to fulfill Holy Scriptures, that the "stone which the builders rejected has become the Cornerstone." I don't care how anyone else sees the reasons for His Crucifixion and death (political, power playing, jealousy, etc.) My Faith has always taught me Jesus died because His message was Life-giving. He brought TRUTH into the world, and the world rejected that TRUTH by hanging Him on a cross...

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 March 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1267668803' post='2066250']
We're not badgering atheist friends, we're discussing Islam amongst Catholics.

And I'm astute enough to know that different tactics are called for at different times. At no time should I hide or avoid the truth. At no time should I give into the desire for false peace by using bad philosophy and not acknowledging the difference between the believer and his belief.

You seem to imply that the only option in telling the truth is "badgering". I reject that. I reject also the notion that human behavior will fully determine conversion. If such is the case, then we are culpable for every failure to convert and there is no act of God involved in conversion. It also makes us wholly responsible for all succesful conversions.


I repeat: There is a difference between a believer and his beliefs and I am under absolutely no obligation as a Catholic to say a belief is beautiful when that belief is false. I am under no Catholic obligation to praise a religion made by man. I can respect the believer while not paying homage to his religion or merely acknowledging its good aspects, which I've already pointed out from a Catholic perspective do not belong to the religion itself.
[/quote]
Thanks, Winchester for speaking the TRUTH...it is ridiculous to assume that just because we Catholics stand for the TRUTH that our Faith is in fact, the Fullness of TRUTH, and the narrow road which leads us to Jesus Christ and Eternal Life, that we somehow are badgering people of other beliefs... I can't count how many people I've helped find their way to Jesus, because I was upfront with them about my beliefs, rather than watering down my Faith to somehow appease them...that's not how St. Paul did it. That's not how St. Dominic did it. Evangelization requires you standing up for what you believe in, or else you'll fall for anything...

Edited March 6, 2010 by dominicansoul