The Be-All End-All Muslim Thread

[Winchester]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='03 March 2010 - 09:15 PM' timestamp='1267668907' post='2066254']
I know plenty of protestants who busy themselves with calling everything "false religion" and "cult." And then the "false religion" label is also affixed to non-protestant Christian faiths, too -- including Catholicism.
[/quote]
So you know some protestants who don't get the point of being a protestant.

I know some leftists who think Hitler was right wing. They're wrong, and it's not my problem.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 March 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1267669046' post='2066255']
...
I know some leftists who think Hitler was right wing. They're wrong, and it's not my problem.
[/quote]

I think a Brush Campbell approach of "clean the gum out your ears, and listen up" is a great way to start that discussion. As you said, different circumstances call for different tactics.

EDIT: specifically, "different tactics are called for at different times."

Edited March 4, 2010 by Lounge Daddy

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 March 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1267668803' post='2066250']
We're not badgering atheist friends, we're discussing Islam amongst Catholics.

And I'm astute enough to know that different tactics are called for at different times. At no time should I hide or avoid the truth. At no time should I give into the desire for false peace by using bad philosophy and not acknowledging the difference between the believer and his belief.

You seem to imply that the only option in telling the truth is "badgering". I reject that. I reject also the notion that human behavior will fully determine conversion. If such is the case, then we are culpable for every failure to convert and there is no act of God involved in conversion. It also makes us wholly responsible for all succesful conversions.


I repeat: There is a difference between a believer and his beliefs and I am under absolutely no obligation as a Catholic to say a belief is beautiful when that belief is false. I am under no Catholic obligation to praise a religion made by man. I can respect the believer while not paying homage to his religion or merely acknowledging its good aspects, which I've already pointed out from a Catholic perspective do not belong to the religion itself.
[/quote]
Well said. +1

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='03 March 2010 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1267669203' post='2066260']
EDIT: specifically, "different tactics are called for at different times."
[/quote]
I agree. But it is never acceptable to say that what is false is true.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='04 March 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1267668344' post='2066243']
Are you saying that "your religion is evil because it isn't Catholic Christianity" is a poor starting point?
[/quote]

Huh? clarification please.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='04 March 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1267669511' post='2066266']
I agree. But it is never acceptable to say that what is false is true.
[/quote]
I agree! No one said it was, that I am aware of.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='04 March 2010 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1267668803' post='2066250']
We're not badgering atheist friends, we're discussing Islam amongst Catholics.


[/quote]

I was using atheists as an example because I don't have any Muslim friends. Aren't I allowed to do that? I would be hesitant to describe these threads as 'Discussing Islam amongst Catholics.'

[Winchester]

He who hesitates is lost.



Who is "Brush Campbell?"

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 March 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1267673389' post='2066320']
He who hesitates is lost.



Who is "Brush Campbell?"
[/quote]

... um, I dunno where that came from. The 'sh' key is right next to the 'ce' on my netbook, I guess.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='04 March 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1267673389' post='2066320']
He who hesitates is lost.



Who is "Brush Campbell?"
[/quote]

It's only been 5 so far. We've got to get it up to 35 or we will have let the team down, so we need Brush Campbell.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='04 March 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1267670764' post='2066284']
[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='04 March 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1267668344' post='2066243']
Are you saying that "your religion is evil because it isn't Catholic Christianity" is a poor starting point?
[/quote]

Huh? clarification please.
[/quote]

In case you missed it.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Winchester' date='04 March 2010 - 04:13 AM' timestamp='1267668803' post='2066250']
We're not badgering atheist friends, we're discussing Islam amongst Catholics.

And I'm astute enough to know that different tactics are called for at different times. At no time should I hide or avoid the truth. At no time should I give into the desire for false peace by using bad philosophy and not acknowledging the difference between the believer and his belief.

[b]You seem to imply that the only option in telling the truth is "badgering". [/b] I reject that. I reject also the notion that human behavior will fully determine conversion. If such is the case, then we are culpable for every failure to convert and there is no act of God involved in conversion. It also makes us wholly responsible for all succesful conversions.


I repeat: There is a difference between a believer and his beliefs and I am under absolutely no obligation as a Catholic to say a belief is beautiful when that belief is false. I am under no Catholic obligation to praise a religion made by man. I can respect the believer while not paying homage to his religion or merely acknowledging its good aspects, which I've already pointed out from a Catholic perspective do not belong to the religion itself.
[/quote]

I don't agree with the conclusion you arrive with the words I bolded.
In a previous post you said
[i]Of course, if we never tell people the Truth, there's the chance they won't come to it, anyway. If we act like all religions are just fine, what's the motivation (apart from pork ribs and beer) to swap religions?[/i]
and I completely agree with you, but what truth are you referring to?
If you start speaking with a Muslim saying that Mohammed is a false prophete you are saying a true thing but you aren't yet telling The Truth.
The Muslim can think: ok, I believe in a false prophete, now I know a true thing, but so I ask: what is the Truth?
So, as you arrived to a conclusion (the bold statement) that can't be proved, I could arrive to the conclusion (that can't be proved too) that if your first approach with a Muslim is to saying him that Mohammed is a false prophete, your first intention is not that of telling him The Truth but only to tell him that he is wrong.
If I say that Jesus is the Lord and the Truth himself and if I say that Mohamed is a false prophete I'm saying two true things, but the first one is preferable and I prefer starting by it, because the first one is an affirmative of a true thing while the second one is an affirmative of a false thing.
The first statement also contains the second one and only from the first statement I can get easily to the obvious conclusion that if Jesus is the only Truth, Islam and every other religion are false (and so the first statement contains "more truth" than the second one but also "less judgements" on the persons), while if I start from the second statement I can't so easily arrive to the conclusion that Jesus is the Only Truth if I don't know him or if I know only few imperfect things about him, and I can also more easily think that the first intention of the speaker is that of judging me.

Edited March 4, 2010 by organwerke

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='03 March 2010 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1267678394' post='2066353']
In case you missed it.
[/quote]

Typo. The 'your religion is evil because it isn't Catholic Christianity' key is right next to the 'Brush Campbell is cool' key on my netbook.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 March 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1267668803' post='2066250']
We're not badgering atheist friends, we're discussing Islam amongst Catholics.

And I'm astute enough to know that different tactics are called for at different times. At no time should I hide or avoid the truth. At no time should I give into the desire for false peace by using bad philosophy and not acknowledging the difference between the believer and his belief.

You seem to imply that the only option in telling the truth is "badgering". I reject that. I reject also the notion that human behavior will fully determine conversion. If such is the case, then we are culpable for every failure to convert and there is no act of God involved in conversion. It also makes us wholly responsible for all succesful conversions.


I repeat: There is a difference between a believer and his beliefs and I am under absolutely no obligation as a Catholic to say a belief is beautiful when that belief is false. I am under no Catholic obligation to praise a religion made by man. I can respect the believer while not paying homage to his religion or merely acknowledging its good aspects, which I've already pointed out from a Catholic perspective do not belong to the religion itself.
[/quote]
This is perhaps the best post in this entire thread, and if I could give it several more positive points I would.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 March 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1267650048' post='2066129']
Actually, the Protestant thing to do is to view many religions as true.
[/quote]
Or Unitarian-Universalist