The Be-All End-All Muslim Thread

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='03 March 2010 - 09:38 AM' timestamp='1267634284' post='2065936']
Winchester! Ha!!
[/quote]
Winnie explained his answer in post number #44.

[quote name='Winchester' date='24 February 2010 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1267046905' post='2062592']
The third question is poorly worded. Oppression of some groups is acceptable, as is violence against some groups. The answer to that question is 'yes'.
[/quote]

[Saint Therese]

That was not a serious thumbs down I gave.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='03 March 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1267636598' post='2065953']
That was not a serious thumbs down I gave.
[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='03 March 2010 - 08:04 AM' timestamp='1267621488' post='2065863']
I don't like labeling things a "false religion" just like I don't like tossing about the word "cult." Part of the reason for that is because I don't believe in thinking such Catholicism = truth, therefor everything else = lie.
[/quote]
So you don't like logic?

False simply means not true. If the Catholic Faith is the True Faith, then everything opposed to it is by definition false. Two contradictory religions cannot both be true (un-pc as it may be to say so).
False beliefs do not necessarily mean a deliberate lie; one can sincerely believe in a falsehood, but that doesn't make the belief any less objectively false.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross']

This is a public forum and there are Muslim visitors from time to time. Most certainly there would be Catholics with Muslim friends. Posts such as seen here may be doing untold damage to relations. Don't you think that there may be Catholics trying to convince others to follow their creed and when they see such posts they will think 'No thanks that's not the way I see God'. At all times we should be Kind and gentle and never judgemental. We are human and make mistakes, God knows I've made plenty, but we must be seen to at least trying to do the right thing. The Pharisees were very good at rules and regulations all 1000 of them but that's not what Jesus taught and it's not what God wants.[/quote]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='23 February 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1266933210' post='2061792']
this is a great point, except, what you have read and seen on many posts that expressively denounce Islam as a false religion, is the TRUTH. And sometimes the TRUTH hurts people who are not in fulfillment with that TRUTH.

Jesus came into this world, knowing that He would not be bringing Peace, but that the world would war against Him, His Teachings, His TRUTH...

...if you read the New Testament, especially ACTS and many letters of St. Paul, the early Church was not shy in being vocal about the error of the Jews who rejected Jesus, the error of pagans...and they spread the Gospel with such zeal, that it costs them their lives...

it's one thing to be nice to others and respectful of where they are at, but to mince or water down TRUTH to prevent a break in "relations" is not the answer...
[/quote]

I too agree with you, dominicansoul.
In fact, the first thing I think when I meet a Muslim is: How can I bring him/her to convert to Christ?
And I know that I have to choose my words, because if I have a "bad approach" very likely people won't listen to me.
I don't know how many muslims you know, but I live in a country in which there is a great immigration and so there are many muslim people and I have also several muslim students, this fact explains why I am so concerned in respecting them even though I don't approve their religion.
I don't do this for cowardy, on the contrary my greatest purpose is to bring the muslims I know to the only truth that is Christ.
Again I completely agree with you and in fact I never renounce to TRUTH to prevent a break in "relations" and I could tell you many stories about it.
Anyway I only wanted to say that when you live very near to these persons and when you have daily relations with them you understand how different is condemning a religion from condemning the persons -then of course every situation is different from another- and I am sure that Mark of The Cross too meant this.

Edited March 3, 2010 by organwerke

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 March 2010 - 08:28 AM' timestamp='1267622895' post='2065868']
A religion can only be true if it was established by God. We believe in one church. ...
[/quote]

I know that. But to me, it still sounds like a Protestant thing to do, calling every other religion "false religion."

[Winchester]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='03 March 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1267649396' post='2066122']
I know that. But to me, it still sounds like a Protestant thing to do, calling every other religion "false religion."
[/quote]
Actually, the Protestant thing to do is to view many religions as true.

[Apotheoun]

Besides, anyone who says that Mohammed is a false prophet must hold that the religion he created is also false. To say otherwise is logically inconsistent.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='03 March 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1267651039' post='2066133']
Besides, anyone who says that Mohammed is a false prophet must hold that the religion he created is also false. To say otherwise is logically inconsistent.
[/quote]
[img]http://theinspirationroom.com/daily/commercials/2009/2/castrol-use-your-dipstick.jpg[/img]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='24 February 2010 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1266933210' post='2061792']
Jesus came into this world, knowing that He would not be bringing Peace, but that the world would war against Him, His Teachings, His TRUTH...


[/quote]

Jesus was crucified because of the fact that the Jews saw him as a threat to their power. They wished to rule by their man made laws rather than the laws of love which Jesus was teaching. The Christians were fed to the lions because the Romans saw there emperor as a deity and he was insanely jealous of the idea of a greater authority. 2000 years ago were cruel and barbaric times. Authority was in the habit of ruling by savagery. People were not ready for Jesus words of love and kindness to your neighbour.
If I had a Muslim friend and I wanted to convert them. To say to them that your prophet is false and so is your religion would be an absolutely stupid approach and it's not exactly true. We can easily justify it by arguing that any religion not based on Jesus words is false but it's still a stupid approach. Muslims revere Jesus PBUH and they love God. In all honesty one would have to say they are closer to truth than most alternate religions or atheists. On another thread I asked the question

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='02 March 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1267494494' post='2065041']
I was shocked to read the thread about Catholics being horrified at a Catholic taking communion in the hand. We've always done it that way! Does this mean that I follow a false religion?
[/quote]
No one was game to answer that because they would fall strait into my trap. There are different practises in different parts of the world someone has to be wrong most likely the truth is none are 100%. The Catholic Church went through some very dark history being more evil than evil. Did or does this make it false because it is not 100% correct? I think the word 'equilibrium' was the word used by Seven77. And these threads are not about converting Muslims because it is claimed that non read them. It '[u]appears[/u]' to be more about pedalling hatred of Muslims amongst members of PM. We should be doing this in a manner which '[u]appears[/u]' to be evangelising. Sorry if that seems harsh but it's the impression I get and quite obviously so do many others.

I took the following as a moderators friendly warning. Tell me if I'm wrong.
[quote name='Seven77' date='02 March 2010 - 02:44 PM' timestamp='1267501467' post='2065125']
just a few thoughts and friendly advice for all of us who posted. :

1. The Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth because she was founded by Truth Himself. I think that all of us agree.

1. Islam contains falsehood. I think that we all agree on this point.

2. a. There are strains of violence in Islam b. which the religion itself has the ability to justify. I think that all of us agree on a. and most--- if not all-- of us also agree on b.

3. Islam is man made yet [u]it has elements of truth[/u]. I think that most of us agree.

4. In so far that Islam has elements of truth--- it is not "vile." In so far that it contains falsehoods, it is deeply flawed and mistaken. I think that many of us can and should come to an agreement on this.

5. [u]Muslims are to respected.[/u] I believe everyone here agrees on this. But as to how they are to be respected, [u]some of us have no clue.[/u] respect is not and should not equate misguided tolerance for error but neither should it appear bigoted. Equilibrium.

[color="#ff0000"]6. If a Muslim visit this website, we must treat him or her with genuine respect and esteem in order that they might come to know the fullness of the truth. [u]If we do not, then we really do not care for his or her soul and we do the devil's work by chasing him or her away from Christ.[/u][/color]

7. [u]That we must use common sense and charity[/u]. Pray. Read Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales or read the Gospel According to St. John. Sit before an icon or picture of the Merciful Savior... maybe go to adoration if we can.

8. [u]Loving witness leads to conversion which furthers the cause of peace on earth.[/u] Love the hell out of everyone til it hurts. Let them see Jesus Christ Crucified---He Who loved us while we were yet sinners---illuminating from within each and every one of us.

Peace.
[/quote]

Edited March 3, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Winchester]

Of course, if we never tell people the Truth, there's the chance they won't come to it, anyway. If we act like all religions are just fine, what's the motivation (apart from pork ribs and beer) to swap religions?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='04 March 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1267664049' post='2066224']
Of course, if we never tell people the Truth, there's the chance they won't come to it, anyway. If we act like all religions are just fine, what's the motivation (apart from pork ribs and beer) to swap religions?
[/quote]

It's not about what we do, but how we achieve it! You're an educated and astute person, surely you can see the merit in seven77s post. If I continue to badger my atheist friends the result will be no friends, no conversion. Sometimes being a Christian means being like a Labrador. You have to love them until they see your way even if only to stop you from salivating all over them.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='03 March 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1267665062' post='2066226']
... You have to love them until they see your way even if only to stop you from salivating all over them.
[/quote]
Are you saying that "your religion is evil because it isn't Catholic Christianity" is a poor starting point?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='03 March 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1267665062' post='2066226']
It's not about what we do, but how we achieve it! You're an educated and astute person, surely you can see the merit in seven77s post. If I continue to badger my atheist friends the result will be no friends, no conversion. Sometimes being a Christian means being like a Labrador. You have to love them until they see your way even if only to stop you from salivating all over them.
[/quote]
We're not badgering atheist friends, we're discussing Islam amongst Catholics.

And I'm astute enough to know that different tactics are called for at different times. At no time should I hide or avoid the truth. At no time should I give into the desire for false peace by using bad philosophy and not acknowledging the difference between the believer and his belief.

You seem to imply that the only option in telling the truth is "badgering". I reject that. I reject also the notion that human behavior will fully determine conversion. If such is the case, then we are culpable for every failure to convert and there is no act of God involved in conversion. It also makes us wholly responsible for all succesful conversions.


I repeat: There is a difference between a believer and his beliefs and I am under absolutely no obligation as a Catholic to say a belief is beautiful when that belief is false. I am under no Catholic obligation to praise a religion made by man. I can respect the believer while not paying homage to his religion or merely acknowledging its good aspects, which I've already pointed out from a Catholic perspective do not belong to the religion itself.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Winchester

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Winchester' date='03 March 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1267650048' post='2066129']
Actually, the Protestant thing to do is to view many religions as true.
[/quote]

I know plenty of protestants who busy themselves with calling everything "false religion" and "cult." And then the "false religion" label is also affixed to non-protestant Christian faiths, too -- including Catholicism.

It seems just as counter productive as Republicans who busy themselves purging the party of "false Republicans" ... until the next GOP convention can be held in Newt's living room.