Apotheoun Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='22 February 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1266883115' post='2061451'] Rabbinic Judaism would be evil because it is false. Rabbinic Judaism is a rebellious sister religion, not the parent religion of Judaism. [/quote] I agree. Rabbinic Judaism is not the same as Biblical Judaism. Christianity is the continuation and fulfillment of Biblical Judaism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='MissyP89' date='22 February 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1266818592' post='2061019'] False, yes. Evil, not in my opinion. In need of the redeeming grace only found in Christ and His Church? You bet. The end. [/quote] Islam is not only in need of the redeeming grace only found in Christ and His Church, but was founded on the rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior and of His Church, and can thus rightly be regarded as evil. Islam explicitly denies the divinity of Christ, as well as His passion, death, resurrection, and role as Savior. Also, the Islamic empire was spread by fighting, subduing, and oppressing mostly Christians. Some of the politically correct Catholics on here have gone so far as make the nonsensical claim that Islam is a "preparation for the Gospel," but how can a post-Christian religion which outright denies the Gospels and was spread by fighting to submission those who believe in the Gospel be a preparation for the Gospel?? I have yet to see an explanation from the Catholics who defend Islam on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='22 February 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1266890579' post='2061562'] Simplifications are always radical. I'm sure the Pope would indeed offer a better explanation than any of us here could. [/quote] All falsehood is objectively evil insofar as it is false. The moral culpability of those who adhere to false beliefs is a different question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='Socrates' date='22 February 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1266894178' post='2061591'] Islam is not only in need of the redeeming grace only found in Christ and His Church, but was founded on the rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior and of His Church, and can thus rightly be regarded as evil. Islam explicitly denies the divinity of Christ, as well as His passion, death, resurrection, and role as Savior. Also, the Islamic empire was spread by fighting, subduing, and oppressing mostly Christians. Some of the politically correct Catholics on here have gone so far as make the nonsensical claim that Islam is a "preparation for the Gospel," but how can a post-Christian religion which outright denies the Gospels and was spread by fighting to submission those who believe in the Gospel be a preparation for the Gospel?? I have yet to see an explanation from the Catholics who defend Islam on here. [/quote] I am not defending Islam; in all honesty I know next to nothing about it. As a general rule, I tend to struggle with the label of 'evil' and on what things I'll impose it. Perhaps I lack the necessary testicular fortitude, but that is where I'm at right now, I'm afraid. Permit a sister to struggle now and then, aye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='MissyP89' date='22 February 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1266897883' post='2061622'] I am not defending Islam; in all honesty I know next to nothing about it. As a general rule, I tend to struggle with the label of 'evil' and on what things I'll impose it. Perhaps I lack the necessary testicular fortitude, but that is where I'm at right now, I'm afraid. Permit a sister to struggle now and then, aye? [/quote] The "defending Islam" remark was not directed at you. I kind of used your post as a springboard to address some general issues, sorry if I was unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='23 February 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1266889553' post='2061538'] Hi Mark, long time, no see. [/quote] Have you been somewhere and someone else has been using your avatar? I've been here all along just as annoying as ever. [quote]The third is not necessarily tied to Islam alone; many times in these recurring Islam threads, it seems as though some feel the need to convince others that forms of cruelty are wrong (whether from Islamists, Christians, or otherwise). I simply included that so that we could skip that part of the discussion from now on.[/quote] True of course. However if I were a Muslim visitor, I would be offended by a perceived inference that it is explicitly related to the other two. [quote]As far as evangelism goes, I agree, it would not be a good thing to go up to a Muslim and say "Your religion is false, and your prophet is too." However, one must remember context. Just as you might talk to your friends differently from your boss or a judge who you're trying to convince that you don't deserve a speeding ticket, one might naturally speak differently when speaking "internally" to those of similar persuasion than to someone who he is trying to convince of a viewpoint. If you went to a Muslim and said that, they would likely ignore you; you'd want to be more gentle and probably tactful. That doesn't change what we believe though, and here, in a place where few Muslims ever venture, it is probably alright to speak frankly.[/quote] This is a public forum and there are Muslim visitors from time to time. Most certainly there would be Catholics with Muslim friends. Posts such as seen here may be doing untold damage to relations. Don't you think that there may be Catholics trying to convince others to follow their creed and when they see such posts they will think 'No thanks that's not the way I see God'. At all times we should be Kind and gentle and never judgemental. We are human and make mistakes, God knows I've made plenty, but we must be seen to at least trying to do the right thing. The Pharisees were very good at rules and regulations all 1000 of them but that's not what Jesus taught and it's not what God wants. [quote]Do you think your Muslim friends think Jesus is the Son of God? That Catholicism is a True religion? That it, and it alone, is the Truth and the Church of God? No. And they probably don't come to your face and say that, but that's alright. We're allowed to have different beliefs...God allowed it when He gave us free will. Even still, there is an objective right and an objective wrong. To act otherwise is to deny the truth. [/quote] Ummm. Well I don't actually have any Muslim friends. From what I have read on the internet and at 'Maniac Muslims' they already claim to love Jesus PBUH. Rule number one 'Love your God with your whole heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.' Muslims (good ones) love Jesus therefore they are obeying the first law even if they don't know it and they love Allah. That puts them well on the way don't you think? And I've never had one tell me that my religion is false they appear to be very reverent just not convinced about who Jesus really is and a bit confused about the Trinity, but then apparently so are we since we cannot explain it. Many of my friends are not religious. I wouldn't dare tell them that they don't believe the truth and will go to hell. Actually some months ago I had a nervous breakdown (that's why I wasn't writing very well at the time, anyhow that's my excuse.) and my friends were very Christ like in their treatment of me. I'm sure Jesus lives in them, if not in their minds. The way I lead them to a greater knowledge is letting them see Jesus in me, in my actions, in my love for those less fortunate. Only rarely do I dare to use words, it usually results with a look of "Don't". I make it well known that I am a devout follower of Jesus and I obey the Catholic teachings so I don't think I am seen as denying the truth. Just trying to reveal it in the way I think Jesus wants me to do it. And I can do that by being guided by the Holy Spirit. Edited February 23, 2010 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='MissyP89' date='22 February 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1266897883' post='2061622'] I am not defending Islam; in all honesty I know next to nothing about it. As a general rule, I tend to struggle with the label of 'evil' and on what things I'll impose it. [b]Perhaps I lack the necessary testicular fortitude[/b], but that is where I'm at right now, I'm afraid. Permit a sister to struggle now and then, aye? [/quote] You're the best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='22 February 2010 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1266900489' post='2061648'] This is a public forum and there are Muslim visitors from time to time. Most certainly there would be Catholics with Muslim friends. Posts such as seen here may be doing untold damage to relations. Don't you think that there may be Catholics trying to convince others to follow their creed and when they see such posts they will think 'No thanks that's not the way I see God'. At all times we should be Kind and gentle and never judgemental. We are human and make mistakes, God knows I've made plenty, but we must be seen to at least trying to do the right thing. The Pharisees were very good at rules and regulations all 1000 of them but that's not what Jesus taught and it's not what God wants. [/quote] this is a great point, except, what you have read and seen on many posts that expressively denounce Islam as a false religion, is the TRUTH. And sometimes the TRUTH hurts people who are not in fulfillment with that TRUTH. Jesus came into this world, knowing that He would not be bringing Peace, but that the world would war against Him, His Teachings, His TRUTH... ...if you read the New Testament, especially ACTS and many letters of St. Paul, the early Church was not shy in being vocal about the error of the Jews who rejected Jesus, the error of pagans...and they spread the Gospel with such zeal, that it costs them their lives... it's one thing to be nice to others and respectful of where they are at, but to mince or water down TRUTH to prevent a break in "relations" is not the answer... Edited February 23, 2010 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='dominicansoul' date='23 February 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1266933210' post='2061792'] it's one thing to be nice to others and respectful of where they are at, but to mince or water down TRUTH to prevent a break in "relations" is not the answer... [/quote] interesting dichotomy you propose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='dominicansoul' date='23 February 2010 - 06:53 AM' timestamp='1266933210' post='2061792'] it's one thing to be nice to others and respectful of where they are at, but to mince or water down TRUTH to prevent a break in "relations" is not the answer... [/quote] I agree. A Catholic must never say or do anything that might mislead a Muslim by making him think that the Church no longer holds as a matter of divine faith that Christ is the sole savior of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='22 February 2010 - 09:48 PM' timestamp='1266900489' post='2061648'] . . . We are human and make mistakes, God knows I've made plenty, but we must be seen to at least trying to do the right thing. The Pharisees were very good at rules and regulations all 1000 of them but that's not what Jesus taught and it's not what God wants. [/quote] We all make mistakes, but the Church's Eucharistic worship is not our creation, nor is it the work of the earthly priest; instead, it is a work of Christ the Lord Himself who bestows His grace through His earthly minister. Christ is the only source of true worship (ορθο δόξα) and He never made, nor will He ever make, a mistake. Finally, it must always be borne in mind that truth and charity are inseparably bound together, and so it is not a true act of charity to allow a Muslim to think that Mohammed was a prophet, or that the Islamic religious ideology can bring salvation. A Catholic must unequivocally proclaim the Gospel of Christ, and do all in his power - through the grace of God - to bring Muslims (and other pagans) out of religious error into the Truth, and of course Truth is not an abstract concept; instead, Truth is Christ incarnate. Edited February 23, 2010 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Well I agree with much of what you people write and it would be truth if it were aimed at [u]All religions,[/u] but I can't help but perceive that sometimes I think that I detect a hint of [i]hatred[/i] on these often recurring Muslim threads. In fact I did report one post for a definitely hateful remark. I don't know what the outcome was, I didn't go back to look, having done what I'm sure Jesus would have me do. People [i]seem[/i] to be intent on seeing only evil and pouting it. And it's not that I defend Muslims particularly, as I stated I don't know any muslims. I would do the same for any religion unless it were obviously evil. If people want to evangelise by saying that the only way to God is through Jesus then I'm fine with that and most definitely in agreement. As far as the prophets of old being blunt and being persecuted for it well I have received plenty of the same and even here at PM. We have to remember that what we do to other people we also do to Jesus. Some time ago a person (Catholic?) on PM made a very cruel and unnecessarily hurtful comment about one of my posts, [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101131&view=findpost&p=2019254"]I lost it against PM calling it evil and unregulated[/url]. I was wrong to do that and I got a reprimand from a Mod to whom I apologised and requested the deletion of the post. My mentor suggested 1/ are the people on PM what they claim to be? Sometimes people claim to be something for their own glory, others so they can bring it to disrepute by their own evil actions. 2/ She suggested that I do not write on PM any-more. But I guess I am a glutton for punishment and I have to and do love the people here as much as anybody else. And I have to do what I have to do. In a homily a priest reminded us that for each of us God has a purpose which is unique to each person. Some will be required to be severe. Is a Catholic soldier who kills another person to defend freedom and the innocent not serving his purpose? My purpose is not to convert others by being blunt. It is by showing them how I serve my God by my love for them and everything that lives. I am also not exempt from being persecuted for my faith. I have been treated harshly in charities that I have supported and even in the Church it's self. But Jesus is always there to console me and recent events have cemented the belief of his love for me and for all others including Muslims, Jews and atheists. I am now not free from personal sin and never probably will be on my own, but I am 100% sure of my faith. I'll tell you something else, there is a certain person who writes on PM who has got his facts completly screwed up. BUT there is a but, he has gone to a great deal of trouble to learn as much as he can about religions and he is here not for his own glory and point scoring or to win debates, but for his percieved guidance and love of others. I sense a very kind, sweet gentle person whom Jesus loves dearly and so do I. I'm sure if I make it to heaven I will see him there beside the Lord Jesus. I do hope you won't percieve me as boasting as has been in the past, that is not my purpose at PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Yes, no, absolutely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 The third question is poorly worded. Oppression of some groups is acceptable, as is violence against some groups. The answer to that question is 'yes'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 [quote name='Winchester' date='25 February 2010 - 08:28 AM' timestamp='1267046905' post='2062592'] The third question is poorly worded. Oppression of some groups is acceptable, as is violence against some groups. The answer to that question is 'yes'. [/quote] You are correct. How astute. Are you a lawyer? maybe you should be! The answer to the third question is yes. We need to use oppression and violence against criminals and extremists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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