Ecumenism Of Return

[Veridicus]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla sallus. It's that simple and always has been.


My understanding is that what made the ecumenical approach of Vatican II different than the approach of the preceding centuries is not the desired endpoint, but the methodology. Vatican II called us to a greater charity and dialogue with protestants et al for the same end-purpose as ecumenism before Vatican II: the conversion of all peoples into the unity of the Catholic Church so that the prayer of Jesus in John 17 might be brought to fruition.

There exists no 'new ecumenism' in terms of ecumenism's end-purpose except in the deranged minds of progressives more concerned with politically correct religious indifferentism than the salvation of souls.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='21 February 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1266809699' post='2060875']
I agree with what Cardinal Kasper said in the quotation in the original post at the beginning of this thread, and I also agree with what Pope Benedict said about this issue at a meeting in Cologne on 19 August 2005:

". . . unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one's own faith history. Absolutely not! It does not mean uniformity in [b]all[/b] expressions of theology and spirituality, in liturgical forms and in discipline. Unity in multiplicity, and multiplicity in unity: in my Homily for the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul on 29 June last, I insisted that full unity and true catholicity in the original sense of the word go together. As a necessary condition for the achievement of this coexistence, the commitment to unity must be constantly purified and renewed; it must constantly grow and mature."

Source: [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050819_ecumenical-meeting_en.html"]Vatican[/url]
[/quote]

Obviously certain "expressions of theology" must be the same. I.e. a Triune God, the redemptive nature of Christ's life, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (albeit in seperate rites), etc.

There can be only one Church, but She can allow for cultural (and therefore spiritual) differences. There [i]must[/i] be some amount of unity. We obviously cannot tell Wiccans that "they're all right, as long as they continue to dialogue".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='22 February 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1266855885' post='2061168']
Obviously certain "expressions of theology" must be the same. I.e. a Triune God, the redemptive nature of Christ's life, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (albeit in seperate rites), etc. [/quote]
Actually, I think the point that the Pope is making is that the linguistic expression of the mystery does not have to be the same, and the common Christological declarations issued by Pope John Paul II and the leaders of various non-Chalcedonian Churches are an example of this idea. How one speaks about the mystery can differ without affecting the mystery itself.

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='22 February 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1266855885' post='2061168']
There can be only one Church, but She can allow for cultural (and therefore spiritual) differences. There [i]must[/i] be some amount of unity.
[/quote]
The Church is one and many at the same time, just as God is one and three at the same time. The ecclesiology of communion involves recognition of the fact that the Catholic Church is a communion of Churches (23 distinct Churches to be precise), and in this way she not only manifests Christ's presence, but also images the Tri-unity of God.

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='22 February 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1266855885' post='2061168']
We obviously cannot tell Wiccans that "they're all right, as long as they continue to dialogue".[/quote]
Ecumenism concerns dialogue aimed at unity among baptized Christians, and so it has nothing whatsoever to do with Wiccans, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, etc., who are not sacramentally connected to the Church.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='22 February 2010 - 12:21 AM' timestamp='1266819699' post='2061042']
There are multitudes that claim to accept Christ but deny his church, sad but true.

ed
[/quote]

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 February 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1266858737' post='2061192']
Actually, I think the point that the Pope is making is that the linguistic expression of the mystery does not have to be the same, and the common Christological declarations issued by Pope John Paul II and the leaders of various non-Chalcedonian Churches are an example of this idea. How one speaks about the mystery can differ without affecting the mystery itself.

The Church is one and many at the same time, just as God is one and three at the same time. The ecclesiology of communion involves recognition of the fact that the Catholic Church is a communion of Churches (23 distinct Churches to be precise), and in this way she not only manifests Christ's presence, but also images the Tri-unity of God.
[/quote]

The Church is by definition the Body of Christ, so while there may be many different "Churches", they are still [i]one [/i]Church. This is what I mean when I speak of the necessity of one Church. I don't mean everyone should be Roman Catholic. I do mean everyone should be a baptized Christian receiving the Sacraments.

[quote]
Ecumenism concerns dialogue aimed at unity among baptized Christians, and so it has nothing whatsoever to do with Wiccans, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, etc., who are not sacramentally connected to the Church.
[/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your definition of ecumenism either allows Protestants to remain outside of the Church or claims that they are already part of it- while they receive a valid Baptism, they stand in need of the other Sacraments and you are ok with that. I think it is much more charitable to hope for their return to the Church and to the Sacraments, and to speak the Truths that the Church teaches. It is not ok to merely maintain dialogue with Protestants and not to invite them into communion. We cannot accept certain Protestant fallacies into the Church, and out of charity to God and neighbor some things cannot be compromised (the Eucharist, for example). How can you not believe in some amount of ecumenism of return without compromising some core aspects of your faith?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='22 February 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1266874588' post='2061338']
I don't mean everyone should be Roman Catholic. I do mean everyone should be a baptized Christian receiving the Sacraments.
[/quote]

Everyone should certainly be "Roman Catholic" if by that expression is meant "a Christian in full communion with the Roman Pontiff" rather than "a member of the Latin Rite."

Edited February 22, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='22 February 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1266875024' post='2061343']
Everyone should indeed be "Roman Catholic" if one by that expression is meant "a Christian in full communion with the Roman Pontiff" rather than "a member of the Latin Rite."
[/quote]

I approve this message.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='22 February 2010 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1266875329' post='2061349']
I approve this message.
[/quote]

I approve it with slight grammatical modification, but I'd also like to point out that in this discussion "Roman Catholic" will almost always mean "a member of the Latin Rite".

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't care which one of the 23 rites you choose, as long as you ARE catholic.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='22 February 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1266874588' post='2061338']
The Church is by definition the Body of Christ, so while there may be many different "Churches", they are still [i]one [/i]Church. This is what I mean when I speak of the necessity of one Church. I don't mean everyone should be Roman Catholic. I do mean everyone should be a baptized Christian receiving the Sacraments.[/quote]
The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is only made manifest in the many Churches, and does not exist in contradistinction from them. In other words, the one Church only exists and is concretized in the many Churches, and does not exist apart from them; and this truth - of course - is analogous to the dogma of the Trinity, for the one God exists and is made manifest only in the three hypostaseis, and never apart from them.

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='22 February 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1266874588' post='2061338']
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your definition of ecumenism either allows Protestants to remain outside of the Church or claims that they are already part of it- while they receive a valid Baptism, they stand in need of the other Sacraments and you are ok with that. I think it is much more charitable to hope for their return to the Church and to the Sacraments, and to speak the Truths that the Church teaches. It is not ok to merely maintain dialogue with Protestants and not to invite them into communion. We cannot accept certain Protestant fallacies into the Church, and out of charity to God and neighbor some things cannot be compromised (the Eucharist, for example). How can you not believe in some amount of ecumenism of return without compromising some core aspects of your faith?[/quote]
I do not see how it follows from what I have said about ecclesiology that Protestants will somehow remain outside the Church. All I have done is advocate a patristic ecclesiology of communion, and - in some sense - also the teaching espoused at the Second Vatican Council (yes, I know . . . that is pretty ironic isn't it) which says that Protestants are united to the Church through the sacrament of baptism (albeit imperfectly). To be honest, I am simply taking Pope Benedict at his word when he says that even the Protestant communities will contribute something positive to the Church as unity is rediscovered through the process of ecumenical dialogue.

Do I like everything that Pope Benedict has to say on this issue? No, but I am not the bishop of Rome, and so what I like or do not like is irrelevant.

Do I hold that Protestantism - as a religious ideology - is deficient? Yes, but again I am not the bishop of Rome, nor have I been appointed the head of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, and so my personal views are ultimately irrelevant.

My own position, which I am sure you already know about because of my many posts on East / West issues, is that the Eastern Orthodox Churches (and even the Oriental Orthodox Churches) hold a special place in ecumenical dialogue because they have maintained apostolic succession, the holy mysteries, and the central dogmas of the Christian faith undefiled since the first millennium, but evidently - for whatever reason - Pope Benedict sees the Protestant communities as having a similar, even if less important, place in the search for unity among baptized Christians.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Veridicus]

I really don't see how protestantism, outside of perhaps a high Anglocatholic persuasion, can join into unity with Catholics (and Easterns) without a tradition of apostolic succession, valid orders, or a eucharistic theology. I just don't see it. As much as I love Papa B., I just don' know about his statement on this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='22 February 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1266899745' post='2061642']
I really don't see how protestantism, outside of perhaps a high Anglocatholic persuasion, can join into unity with Catholics (and Easterns) without a tradition of apostolic succession, valid orders, or a eucharistic theology. I just don't see it. As much as I love Papa B., I just don' know about his statement on this.
[/quote]
I do not think that the Pope is saying that. If you read the speech at the link I gave it is clear that he is saying unity will be "discovered" through dialogue, and not created by political agreements. I think we need to bear in mind that ecumenism is not going to bring unity quickly, but through dialogue the sides will enrich each other and grow in a way that allows them to find the unity that God alone gives, and which I have no doubt Pope Benedict believes subsists in the Catholic Church.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 February 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1266903298' post='2061693']
I do not think that the Pope is saying that. If you read the speech at the link I gave it is clear that he is saying unity will be "discovered" through dialogue, and not created by political agreements. I think we need to bear in mind that ecumenism is not going to bring unity quickly, but through dialogue the sides will enrich each other and grow in a way that allows them to find the unity that God alone gives, and which I have no doubt Pope Benedict believes subsists in the Catholic Church.
[/quote]

Good. I've read less...positive...evaluations of this speech on external sights before. Of course those are a dime a dozen online. I'll trust your opinion on this one.

[mortify]

[size="3"]"Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for [b][i][color="#FF0000"]the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ[/color][/i][/b] of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it.


"For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]


"Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. [i][b][color="#FF0000"]For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, "the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful"?[[/color][/b][/i][/size]

[b]
Pope Pius XI, MORTALIUM ANIMOS, sections 10 and 11; 1928[/b]

Edited February 24, 2010 by mortify

[cmotherofpirl]

Pope Benedict XVI's speech in Cologne: ". . . unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one's own faith history. Absolutely not! It does not mean uniformity in all expressions of theology and spirituality, in liturgical forms and in discipline. Unity in multiplicity, and multiplicity in unity: in my Homily for the Solemnity of Sts. Peter and Paul on 29 June last, I insisted that full unity and true catholicity in the original sense of the word go together. As a necessary condition for the achievement of this coexistence, the commitment to unity must be constantly purified and renewed; it must constantly grow and mature."

from one of Appy's posts in open mic