infinitelord1 Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 I just read this paragraph on Wikipedia regarding St. Thomas Aquinas' view of the nature of God... 1.God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.[60] 2.God is perfect, lacking nothing. That is, God is distinguished from other beings on account of God's complete actuality.[61] 3.God is infinite. That is, God is not finite in the ways that created beings are physically, intellectually, and emotionally limited. This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number.[62] 4.God is immutable, incapable of change on the levels of God's essence and character.[63] 5.God is one, without diversification within God's self. The unity of God is such that God's essence is the same as God's existence. In Aquinas's words, "in itself the proposition 'God exists' is necessarily true, for in it subject and predicate are the same."[64] Im not sure if I agree or like what he says in #3 where he says, "This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number". I personally have always viewed God as being infinite in size and number. What exactly is Aquinas referring to when he says this? Does anyone know the name of the arguement where Aquinas attempts to prove god's omnipresence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='21 February 2010 - 01:39 AM' timestamp='1266734390' post='2060392'] I just read this paragraph on Wikipedia regarding St. Thomas Aquinas' view of the nature of God... 1.God is simple, without composition of parts, such as body and soul, or matter and form.[60] 2.God is perfect, lacking nothing. That is, God is distinguished from other beings on account of God's complete actuality.[61] 3.God is infinite. That is, God is not finite in the ways that created beings are physically, intellectually, and emotionally limited. This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number.[62] 4.God is immutable, incapable of change on the levels of God's essence and character.[63] 5.God is one, without diversification within God's self. The unity of God is such that God's essence is the same as God's existence. In Aquinas's words, "in itself the proposition 'God exists' is necessarily true, for in it subject and predicate are the same."[64] Im not sure if I agree or like what he says in #3 where he says, "This infinity is to be distinguished from infinity of size and infinity of number". I personally have always viewed God as being infinite in size and number. What exactly is Aquinas referring to when he says this? Does anyone know the name of the arguement where Aquinas attempts to prove god's omnipresence? [/quote] St. Thomas is basically saying that God (as God) is pure spirit and doesn't have a physical body (except incarnate as Jesus Christ) that takes up space, so technically He has no physical size at all (large or small). This is a different matter than His omnipresence. St. Thomas is just clarifying that when we refer to God being infinite, it doesn't mean He's this huge physical thing that takes up an infinite amount of space. Since there is only one God, God is not infinite in number; that would mean there's an infinite number of gods, which is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Along those lines God can be infinite in size and number, he is afterall the alpha and the omega. This being the beginning and the end and of allthings and above all things would allow him to be whatever he chooses. I am not attempting to argue with a doctor of the church, but i feel that any man trying to explain God would fall short due to our inability to fathom His depths. ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Ed Normile' date='21 February 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1266779410' post='2060554'] Along those lines God can be infinite in size and number, he is afterall the alpha and the omega. This being the beginning and the end and of allthings and above all things would allow him to be whatever he chooses. I am not attempting to argue with a doctor of the church, but i feel that any man trying to explain God would fall short due to our inability to fathom His depths. ed [/quote] St. Thomas Aquinas is very precise in his language, and I think has a better grasp on the topic than either "infinitelord" or yourself (or myself, for that matter). If you read more of the Summa, you'd probably see better what he's getting at. He's just saying that the infinity of God doesn't mean in a physical or numerical sense (ie. God has no physical body, and is only one in number.) To say that there is is an infinite number of gods is heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 I agree with St. Maximos the confessor who taught that God is beyond the concept of infinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 [quote name='Ed Normile' date='22 February 2010 - 06:10 AM' timestamp='1266779410' post='2060554'] ...the alpha and the omega.... ed [/quote] Is this metaphorically speaking since there is no beginning or end? I visualised it as meaning that he [i]infinitely[/i] encompasses everything, that is to say there is nothing beyond where beyond does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 [quote name='Socrates' date='21 February 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1266780753' post='2060564'] St. Thomas Aquinas is very precise in his language, and I think has a better grasp on the topic than either "infinitelord" or yourself (or myself, for that matter). If you read more of the Summa, you'd probably see better what he's getting at. He's just saying that the infinity of God doesn't mean in a physical or numerical sense (ie. God has no physical body, and is only one in number.) To say that there is is an infinite number of gods is heresy. [/quote] Yet as catholics we profess our beleif in the Blessed Trinity, God in three persons, one true God. ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 [quote name='Ed Normile' date='21 February 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1266805621' post='2060824'] Yet as catholics we profess our beleif in the Blessed Trinity, God in three persons, one true God. ed [/quote] Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods. This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 [quote name='Socrates' date='21 February 2010 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1266806595' post='2060836'] Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods. This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number. [/quote] So how important is it that we pray to Jesus? Afterall, it does say that we must go through him in order to see the kingdom of heaven. Why would it really matter who we pray to (of the members of the trinity) since they are all the same being. Perhaps what Jesus was saying was that you must believe in me (God) in order to go to heaven? “I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME.” — Jesus Christ (John 14:6) The trinity has always baffled me. Here we have this One and only God who takes 3 different forms, and then says that you have to go through one of his forms to see the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='22 February 2010 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1266815497' post='2060970'] So how important is it that we pray to Jesus? Afterall, it does say that we must go through him in order to see the kingdom of heaven. Why would it really matter who we pray to (of the members of the trinity) since they are all the same being. Perhaps what Jesus was saying was that you must believe in me (God) in order to go to heaven? "I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." — Jesus Christ (John 14:6) The trinity has always baffled me. Here we have this One and only God who takes 3 different forms, and then says that you have to go through one of his forms to see the others? [/quote] The Trinity is meant to baffle us, it is afterall a mystery. God in the Trinity is three distinct beings and one God. Socrates said "Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods. This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number." I would ask you why you would assume to limit God? If God willed it he he could be an infinity of persons or Gods, all things are possible with God. ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 There is no extent of His Infiniteness. His Infiniteness transcends infinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 [quote name='Ed Normile' date='22 February 2010 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1266816223' post='2060983'] The Trinity is meant to baffle us, it is afterall a mystery. God in the Trinity is three distinct beings and one God. Socrates said "Exactly three Persons, yet only one God, not an infinity of persons or infinity of gods. This is what St. Thomas means when he says God is not infinite in number." I would ask you why you would assume to limit God? If God willed it he he could be an infinity of persons or Gods, all things are possible with God. ed [/quote] Well i think you have made a good point...i have heard people say that God cannot sin...dont you think that is putting limitations on God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='22 February 2010 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1266821864' post='2061072'] Well i think you have made a good point...i have heard people say that God cannot sin...dont you think that is putting limitations on God? [/quote] Sin is a limitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='22 February 2010 - 02:04 AM' timestamp='1266822270' post='2061073'] Sin is a limitation. [/quote] will you explain yourself please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Sin is bondage, enslavement and therefore limiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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