dUSt Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 [quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 12 2004, 10:33 AM'] The church is the foundation of the Truth. That does not make it(the church) Truth. [/quote] Right. It makes it the foundation of God's Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Right. But that is totally different from saying that the 'church is infallible.' The Church is made up of fallible men. Men cannot be right 100% of the time concerning scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 [quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 12 2004, 11:41 AM'] Right. But that is totally different from saying that the 'church is infallible.' The Church is made up of fallible men. Men cannot be right 100% of the time concerning scripture. [/quote] Not unless they're guided by the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 But aren't we all guided by that same Holy Spirit? Jesus did send the Holy Spirit to the entire Church. Not just a select few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 [quote name='NewReformation' date='Apr 12 2004, 11:48 AM'] But aren't we all guided by that same Holy Spirit? Jesus did send the Holy Spirit to the entire Church. Not just a select few. [/quote] Problem -- we often mistake our own feelings and opinions for the Holy Spirit's guidance. Apart from God's Church, we can easily be misguided, but if we keep our hearts and minds open to God's Church and listen to it and obey it, then we can never go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 [quote][b]NewReformation writes:[/b] But aren't we all guided by that same Holy Spirit? Jesus did send the Holy Spirit to the entire Church. Not just a select few.[/quote] Yes, but isn't it St. Paul who says that, even though all Christians receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, some receive different gifts? Didn't he say that some spoke in tongues, some taught, some prophesied, etc.? We believe that infallibility is a gift of the Holy Spirit, one that everyone doesn't have. In fact, those who do have the gift don't have it all the time. The Pope only has it, for instance, when he's speaking [i]ex cathedra[/i] -- something that's only been done twice in the history of the Church. The Bishops and the Pope together can speak infallibly during Ecumenical Councils, or when spread throughout the world they can speak infallibly, in union with each other, through the ordinary magisterium. But the Pope can't just come out tomorrow, say "Peanut butter tastes good," and that's infallible. Infallibility is a gift that, in perfect accord with St. Paul's words regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit, is given to only some and not all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Apr 13 2004, 12:49 AM'] Yes, but isn't it St. Paul who says that, even though all Christians receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, some receive different gifts? Didn't he say that some spoke in tongues, some taught, some prophesied, etc.? We believe that infallibility is a gift of the Holy Spirit, one that everyone doesn't have. In fact, those who do have the gift don't have it all the time. The Pope only has it, for instance, when he's speaking [i]ex cathedra[/i] -- something that's only been done twice in the history of the Church. The Bishops and the Pope together can speak infallibly during Ecumenical Councils, or when spread throughout the world they can speak infallibly, in union with each other, through the ordinary magisterium. But the Pope can't just come out tomorrow, say "Peanut butter tastes good," and that's infallible. Infallibility is a gift that, in perfect accord with St. Paul's words regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit, is given to only some and not all the time. [/quote] I can't seem to find the gift of infallibility listed in scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 IIRC it is Matthew 16, where Jesus gives Peter the keys to the Kingdom, and where he says the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 (edited) The way i see it is, bible alone leads to "MY Interpretation alone" which then leads to ignorance of the Truth, (of the what the bible really says) The pharisees did that and they ended up rejecting the messiah. Because Christ was not the messiah they had "Interpreted". It's been 2000 years do you really think it's up to the "Individual Christian" to find out what the bible is saying? even after 2000 years? That's kinda messed up dont you think? Do you even notice how the Catholic Church handles this? It's one of the main reasons why we are not divided into thousands of sects. Because we already know what the bible says and we always have. I'm not meaning to be un-charitbale here, im just trying to make a point. The early Church knew what the book of revelation meant and we know what it means today, why are ya'll still trying to find out what it's all about? It really makes no sense at all. Edited April 13, 2004 by MC Just Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 [quote name='Jason' date='Apr 10 2004, 08:15 PM'] I would like a Protestant to show me in the Bible where it says to use only the Bible. Or show me where there is no authority in the Church and not to stand and hold to Traditions. God Bless Jason [/quote] Now, Jason, before you try to accuse or assume something that is not said, I am not disagreeing with you, however, as a Protestant, I can tell you that asking a question like that is the same as telling a Catholic to show me in the Bible where it clearly states the trinity. It doesn't; however, it can be assumed through interpretation and exegenises (sp?). The Sola Scriptura doctrine is assumed through the interpretation of the verse that states that 'All scripture is God-breathed, and is useful in teaching...' In Christ, Mrs. Bro. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 [quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' date='Apr 13 2004, 01:21 PM'] Now, Jason, before you try to accuse or assume something that is not said, I am not disagreeing with you, however, as a Protestant, I can tell you that asking a question like that is the same as telling a Catholic to show me in the Bible where it clearly states the trinity. It doesn't; however, it can be assumed through interpretation and exegenises (sp?). The Sola Scriptura doctrine is assumed through the interpretation of the verse that states that 'All scripture is God-breathed, and is useful in teaching...' In Christ, Mrs. Bro. Adam [/quote] I John 5:17(I think) "There are three that bear witness in heaven; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 New Ref. I'm not debating against Jason, or you, simply stating what a Protestant would be coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 (edited) The thing too is that Protestants don't all agree on what Sola Scriptura actually means. Whenever there is a disagreement, one will say to the other "we are having this disagreement because you haven't used Sola Scriptura correctly", or something to that effect. That is an inevitable result when two people understand Sola Scriptura differently and use it differently. But afterall, who is there to decide what it is and how to use it? Edited April 13, 2004 by Justified Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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