Starvation And Theft

[BibleReader]

Okay the verses in question are 1 Peter 2:13-16. That shows us how we are to follow man's law. Reading the whole chapter will further display how we are to be seen in the eyes of men. Just to clarify, I believe that we are to follow God's law, and out of love, as if we were serving God, follow man's law; this is true except when man's law says to go against God's Law. (You can also read Romans 13:1-7, Titus 3:1 and Acts 4:19)

I'm sorry for assuming that you would say that the bible is error prone, but that is the number one argument I receive when I show people that the bible says something they don't like. It was just the next successive statement in that context, in my mind.

In the old testament (Lev 19:9-10) show us that when Christ was walking through the fields he was justified in taking food. The people were willing and required to grow extra for the foreigners and poor. Thus there could have been no crime against either the Roman Law or the Jewish Law. By saying Jesus did it so can I, will not work.

We are responsible for our actions solely. In that case, for one to sin against us gives us no right to sin against another. If there are no people who give to the poor, and the local law does not dictate that there should be such institutions in place to provide for the poor, then they are sinning. Furthermore, there is no place in the bible that warrants someone to take something that is in the [i]ownership[/i] of another, without permission. So then, we are in no way compelled to do such a thing. If the local laws call it thievery and there is no biblical law compelling it, then we would be sinning by doing so.

I suppose that one may argue that by participating in events that lead to your death are a sin also. First we must realize that we have no control in big picture. The events that have not unfolded yet could reveal that you never had to steal, or that if you were a bit more patient things would have gotten better. This is why the bible tells us to have faith (Matt 6:25-27, Psa 34:19), that even the birds of the air are cared for, how much greater are you.

We can also see that suffering and death are no longer a price. They don't have to be something feared or worthwhile. We know that the kingdom of heaven is worth all the suffering in the world. (Romans 8:18-19) We know that Jesus conquered death so that we may live eternally. Why then are death and suffering always used as an excuse to commit some kind of sin?

I'm not saying that Jesus eating in the field is proof of what I am trying to prove, but rather irrelevant as an argument saying that stealing for hunger is good. The basis for that story is Christ working on the sabbath, however I'm not discussing that here. The story is found in Matthew 12 if you would like to read it.

You are correct in saying that interpreting the bible can be hard. I generally follow a few rules of thumb:

1.) Pray About it
God reveals His wisdom through prayer

2.) Use scripture to interpret Scripture
You will find most things are repeated in the bible enough to find it under different context's

3.) Common sense and logic are key
Both can reveal a lot more than is apparent by looking at a passage, and are also independent of societies rules and baggage.

I believe that a society based solely on biblical will undoubtedly incorporate socialistic principles. There is no way around it. As a subject to the government, I don't believe that we are to worry about their rights and wrongs but rather just follow the moral code set forth in the bible. If a system is so flawed that there is no other way but to steal, I cannot say it is right. In the eyes of God I would say have faith, implore your peers, and to die with honor is better.

Further Reading:

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2024:10-11&version=NIV"]Deuteronomy 24:10-11[/url]
Even when it is owed, taking is not condoned.

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:5-7&version=NIV"]Ephesians 6:5-7[/url]
Slaves, which we frown upon, are called to obey their masters.

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20119:105-112&version=NIV"]Psalm 119:105-112[/url]
Obedience to God.

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+4%3A19-20&version=NIV"]Acts 4:19-20[/url]; [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:16-40&version=NIV"]Acts 16:16-40[/url]; [url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20119:1-8&version=NIV"]Psalm 119:1-8[/url]

[Winchester]

"Cast not your pearls before weirdos who may or may not be women." Book of Winnie

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Winchester' date='01 March 2010 - 09:16 PM' timestamp='1267499763' post='2065099']
"Cast not your pearls before weirdos who may or may not be women." Book of Winnie
[/quote]

The most profound question provoked by this discussion is: Would Rexi steal a turkey panini to prevent himself from starving to death on a non-Lenten Friday?

[Winchester]

I would walk over my own mother to get one.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Yo if you a hungry guy and you need to eat bread
listen to this freestyle in this philisophical thread
Heres what you do Mr. Ive got nothing better to do
then to read this phatmassers unheard of word comin at you
First, get a job. They do wonders
puts green in yo pocket like youve got mold downunder
Second, Go to the nearest grocery store and dont weep
It may take you moving your feet but the reward is sweet
Third, pick up a loaf of bread and some wine
wait better yet scratch all that
Why not go to Mass on time with a mantilla hat
Partake of the Holy Eucharist
if you aint got money dont worry honey
just walk up to the Alter stick out your tongue and consume the All-Holy
yo dont have to steal you dont have to kill
Im pretty sure if you hungry fo real and you need somthing to eat
Jesus will feed you His meal to avoid any immorality.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 March 2010 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1267500677' post='2065112']
The most profound question provoked by this discussion is: Would Rexi steal a turkey panini to prevent himself from starving to death on a non-Lenten Friday?
[/quote]
Only if it was served by a Catholic woman wearing a skirt and veil.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 March 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1267500677' post='2065112']
The most profound question provoked by this discussion is: Would Rexi steal a turkey panini to prevent himself from starving to death on a non-Lenten Friday?
[/quote]
I say he would not.

[Slappo]

I leave my car door unlocked and food in the back seat. I bring what I need in to work with me (usually whatever I'm having for breakfast) and everything else I leave in my car. I don't keep valuables in my car and I bring my laptop with me if I am bringing it somewhere during/after work so I don't have to worry about that being stolen, but if someone takes some/all of my food, then they probably needed it more than me. It's only like 15-20 bucks worth.

I might be irked at first that my food is gone, but on second thought I won't really care. I keep off brand pop tarts and the Kashi granola bars. For all I know someone has taken a single bar to quench their hunger on a cold day and I never even knew it happened!



If I had a nice car or valuables inside I would lock the door... but my car doors don't even lock

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Winchester' date='01 March 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1267501173' post='2065122']
I would walk over my own mother to get one.
[/quote]
I wouldnt' put it past you. You need the strength of the turkey panini to produce man child.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='01 March 2010 - 10:31 PM' timestamp='1267504279' post='2065152']
Only if it was served by a Catholic woman wearing a skirt and veil.
[/quote]
[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 March 2010 - 03:35 AM' timestamp='1267522525' post='2065234']
I say he would not.
[/quote]

I think he would definitely steal the turkey panini on a Tuesday.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='02 March 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1267577405' post='2065616']
I think he would definitely steal the turkey panini on a Tuesday.
[/quote]
I agree.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Slappo' date='02 March 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1267575443' post='2065602']
I leave my car door unlocked and food in the back seat. I bring what I need in to work with me (usually whatever I'm having for breakfast) and everything else I leave in my car. I don't keep valuables in my car and I bring my laptop with me if I am bringing it somewhere during/after work so I don't have to worry about that being stolen, but if someone takes some/all of my food, then they probably needed it more than me. It's only like 15-20 bucks worth.

I might be irked at first that my food is gone, but on second thought I won't really care. I keep off brand pop tarts and the Kashi granola bars. For all I know someone has taken a single bar to quench their hunger on a cold day and I never even knew it happened!



If I had a nice car or valuables inside I would lock the door... but my car doors don't even lock
[/quote]
That's like me, except instead of food, it's a gun.

And I lock my doors.

[Domine ut Videam]

I'm just wondering if anyone has noticed the clear Les Miserables analogy here.

Jean Valjean steals a loaf of bread to feed his sister's starving children, of whom he is the responsible man for at the young age of 25.

[quote]
In pruning season he earned eighteen sous a day; then he hired out as a hay-maker, as laborer, as neat-herd on a farm, as a drudge. He did whatever he could. His sister worked also but what could she do with seven little children? It was a sad group enveloped in misery, which was being gradually annihilated. A very hard winter came. Jean had no work. The family had no bread. No bread literally. Seven children!

One Sunday evening, Maubert Isabeau, the baker on the Church Square at Faverolles, was preparing to go to bed, when he heard a violent blow on the grated front of his shop. He arrived in time to see an arm passed through a hole made by a blow from a fist, through the grating and the glass. The arm seized a loaf of bread and carried it off. Isabeau ran out in haste; the robber fled at the full speed of his legs. Isabeau ran after him and stopped him. The thief had flung away the loaf, but his arm was still bleeding. It was Jean Valjean.[/quote]

Just thought I'd point out this nice cultural reference. Victor Hugo wrote about some beautiful truths in this book.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Domine ut Videam

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='16 February 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1266384192' post='2058201']
[i][u]This query reminds me of Jean Valjean.[/u][/i] I'm not sure how Thomas Aquinas would handle this, although I like to defer to the Principle of Double Effect for its simple and efficient leveling of moral quagmires. There does exist a point in the process of starvation where the frontal lobe ceases functioning correctly...that is the 'decision-making' and 'ethical evaluating' part of the human brain is essentially defective. The fear of death due to starvation (or the psychological effects of a loved one starving) could be viewed as something which assuages the gravity and culpability of stealing. Perhaps stealing for the immediate necessity of self-preservation (or the preservation of an innocent in immediate danger) is similar to killing an aggressor in self-defense?
[/quote]


[quote name='Domine ut Videam' date='02 March 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1267584336' post='2065668']
I'm just wondering if anyone has noticed the clear Les Miserables analogy here.

Jean Valjean steals a loaf of bread to feed his sister's starving children, of whom he is the responsible man for at the young age of 25.



Just thought I'd point out this nice cultural reference. Victor Hugo wrote about some beautiful truths in this book.
[/quote]




Victor Hugo also criticized rather starkly the Eucharistic piety of the Sisters of the Perpetual Adoration if I remember correctly. At least in his Unabridged version he did. For the record, with a few reservations, I really enjoyed the book...and the play when I saw it in London.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Veridicus

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='03 March 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1267596929' post='2065790']


Victor Hugo also criticized rather starkly the Eucharistic piety of the Sisters of the Perpetual Adoration if I remember correctly. At least in his Unabridged version he did. For the record, with a few reservations, I really enjoyed the book...and the play when I saw it in London.
[/quote]

The play or the musical? I saw the musical in London. Unfortunately I was a bit miffed to be seeing that particular production as I'd seen it a few times in the States already, but it did not disappoint.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='03 March 2010 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1267600589' post='2065842']
The play or the musical? I saw the musical in London. Unfortunately I was a bit miffed to be seeing that particular production as I'd seen it a few times in the States already, but it did not disappoint.
[/quote]

play=musical. 12:15 is past my bedtime when I have to get up at 6am.