Holy Mary's Role In The Tribulation

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='kafka' date='18 February 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1266522799' post='2058878']
you say that only since you dont see the subtletly.

God's will was to Incarnate Himself in the womb of Mary. He revealed His will to Mary giving her the grace prior to His Revelation to cooperate with His plan. Once He revealed it to Mary she freely cooperated by the grace and power of God. That simple. By freely cooperating she merited to be the Mother of God. She merited the title. But the Incarnation was accomplished by God Himself, with Mary assisting Him. This isnt determinism. It is the mystery of free will cooperating in harmony with God's grace. Mary couldnt have turned her back on God since she was completely saved from the first moment of her existance by the very Passion and Death which God accomplished by Incarnating Himself.

Remember those Angels and Saints who experience the beautific vision can never turn their back on God and committ a serious sin. Yet Mary is made by God greater then all of them from the first moment of her existance though she didnt experience the immediate vision of God from the first moment of her existance. Instead she recieved the mediate vision of God, the Incarnation in her womb. This is some of the greatness and mystery of Mary.

This is roughly my view. It probably needs work, but it isnt deterministic. It only is if one interprets the power of God's grace as forcing free will which is absurd. If one does not cooperate with God's offer of grace that person's free will is damaged. It is maimed.

And Apotheon is right entirely grace and entirely free will. That is the sense I am explaining it though imperfectly. Trying to emphasize the grace part. Free will acting alone without grace is damaged, and powerless in accomplishing God's will and plan.
[/quote]

This all made me recall a [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=41983&hl=Mary,%20Immaculate,%20sin&st=0"]thread[/url] from years ago that settled this matter.

Please don't bump it, it was the most confusing thread ever on Phatmass.

Basically, God knew that Mary wouldn't sin, and therefore it couldn't ever be the case that Mary would sin, but that was because she chose through perfect obedience (through grace) not to sin. What appears to be deterministic is, in fact, a mind-boggling case of God's being out of time.

Mary had the [i]ability[/i] to sin because she was human. However, because she never did sin, it would be correct to say (from God's perspective, since He is outside of the timeline we encounter) that it could never have happened, not because making her immaculate took away her freedom (which was my point), but because she freely chose to cooperate with God from the moment of her conception, she was made immaculate, and that choice was freely carried through her whole life. We can say that she could never have sinned in the same way we can say that Julius Caesar could never have killed himself. It is not fated or pre-determined, rather, it is pre-known (to God, since He's outside of time) and "post-known" to us what course of action would be followed.

Anyway, she didn't save anyone herself, obviously, but she still gave her Fiat at the moment of her conception, which yes, was prompted and pushed through by grace, but still required her consent. In that sense, she does co-redeem, because she participated with grace. So, in fact, do we, in a much lesser way.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kafka' date='18 February 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1266522799' post='2058878']
you say that only since you dont see the subtletly.

God's will was to Incarnate Himself in the womb of Mary. He revealed His will to Mary giving her the grace prior to His Revelation to cooperate with His plan. Once He revealed it to Mary she freely cooperated by the grace and power of God. That simple. By freely cooperating she merited to be the Mother of God. She merited the title. But the Incarnation was accomplished by God Himself, with Mary assisting Him. This isnt determinism. It is the mystery of free will cooperating in harmony with God's grace. Mary couldnt have turned her back on God since she was completely saved from the first moment of her existance by the very Passion and Death which God accomplished by Incarnating Himself.

Remember those Angels and Saints who experience the beautific vision can never turn their back on God and committ a serious sin. Yet Mary is made by God greater then all of them from the first moment of her existance though she didnt experience the immediate vision of God from the first moment of her existance. Instead she recieved the mediate vision of God, the Incarnation in her womb. This is some of the greatness and mystery of Mary.

This is roughly my view. It probably needs work, but it isnt deterministic. It only is if one interprets the power of God's grace as forcing free will which is absurd. If one does not cooperate with God's offer of grace that person's free will is damaged. It is maimed.


[/quote]
Even with all the grace in the universe, Mary to be a human being still had free will to choose to say yes. The grace might of enabled it, but it had to be her choice.
The Angels did have the beatific vision and some of the them DID turn there back on God.

[kafka]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='18 February 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1266524779' post='2058902']
Even with all the grace in the universe, Mary to be a human being still had free will to choose to say yes. The grace might of enabled it, but it had to be her choice.
The Angels did have the beatific vision and some of the them DID turn there back on God.
[/quote]
impossible. The Angels were only given the beautific vision after they were tested.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='18 February 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1266524779' post='2058902']
Even with all the grace in the universe, Mary to be a human being still had free will to choose to say yes. The grace might of enabled it, but it had to be her choice.
The Angels did have the beatific vision and some of the them DID turn there back on God.
[/quote]


[quote name='kafka' date='18 February 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1266526598' post='2058925']
impossible. The Angels were only given the beautific vision after they were tested.
[/quote]

Yeah, actually, Kafka's correct about that, Cmom.