Holy Mary's Role In The Tribulation

[kafka]

From the Prophecy of Isaiah

{42:9} The things that were first, behold, they have arrived. And I also announce what is new. Before these things arise, I will cause you to hear about them.

The first things which have arrived is the First Coming of Christ, his Birth which was foreshadowed and predicted in many ways in the Old Testament. Yet God announces what is new. That which is new is the Tribulation. The announcement is through the Modern Marian Apparitions. Mary in her apparitions has announced the Tribulation. She has made us hear in so many ways that the Tribulation is near. Though she adds nothing new to Divine Revelation. She is announcing what is already expressed in Divine Revelation, making it clear to the Faithful that the events and figures predicted in Sacred Scripture are about to fall upon us. And the true Marian apparitions and their fruits will continue to help the Church through the Tribulation.

The Old Testament Tabernacle was a preparation for the Temple of Jerusalem. The Tabernacle foreshadows Mary who is the Immaculate preparation for the Incarnation, which is the First Coming of Jesus Christ. Now in the modern era Mary is announcing and preparing her children in so many ways for the Tribulation which culminates in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. And Mary's true apparitions will continue to support and help the Church through the Tribulation. This fits in perfectly with Mary's unique role in salvation history.

Mary assists God in His salvific Deeds however they do not depend upon Mary in any way whatsoever. God Incarnated Himself, Mary assisted Him. God initiates the Tribulation Himself, and Mary is assisting Him by appearing on earth in various places over the past two centuries and announcing to the Faithful that the events in the Tribulation predicted by God in Sacred Scripture are about to fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. She is preparing the Faithful for the events of the Tribulation which will be initiated by God, in so many ways, just as she was the Immaculate prepartion for the Incarnation. This is her role. The events of the Tribulation such as the Era of Peace depend upon God and not Mary. Mary will return with Jesus Christ at the event of His Second Coming in order to assist Jesus as she always does, however the event depends on Jesus, not her.

The fifth marian dogma ushering in a so-called era of peace that Miravalle and others teach is erroneous. The salvific events of the Tribulation wrought by God, do not depend upon a marian dogma in this case the co-Redemptrix/Mediatrix/Advocatrix role of Mary, being infallibly taught by the Magisterium, nor do they depend upon Mary in any way whatsoever. May this teaching and attitude spread by Dr. Mark Miravalle and other.

Edited February 16, 2010 by kafka

[Thy Geekdom Come]

While it is debatable that defining the Fifth Marian Dogma will bring an era of peace (I refuse to speculate, since that's a matter of private revelation), calling the Fifth Marian Dogma "so-called" is not wise. It is not a dogma, true, but it is a doctrine and we are bound to believe it. I think your post belittles Mary's role. Yes, God could have done all this without Mary, but that is beside the point: Mary said yes, and that makes her great, and it also gives her a role in our redemption.

[kafka]

[quote name='Raphael' date='16 February 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1266353520' post='2057999']
While it is debatable that defining the Fifth Marian Dogma will bring an era of peace (I refuse to speculate, since that's a matter of private revelation), calling the Fifth Marian Dogma "so-called" is not wise. It is not a dogma, true, but it is a doctrine and we are bound to believe it. I think your post belittles Mary's role. Yes, God could have done all this without Mary, but that is beside the point: Mary said yes, and that makes her great, and it also gives her a role in our redemption.
[/quote]
Mary said yes because God made Her Immaculate. God made Mary Immaculate because of His salvific death on the Cross. The merits of the salvific death of Jesus Christ on the Cross transcends Space and Time. Without the salvific death of Jesus Christ Mary would not have recieved her Immaculate Conception, and would not have been able to say yes for the Incarnation. It is that simple. I belittle her nothing. I do her great honor, because she was the one chosen out of everyone to recieve the Immaculate Conception which was God's preparation for His Incarnation which He wrought dependent on no human being whatsoever. Mary assisted God, yet Mary does not save. In can be no other way.

I said 'so called' because the fifth marian dogma is a theological opinion that presumes there are only four Marian dogmas in the first place. There are more than five Marian dogmas in my theological opinion. But since it was confusing I will take that out.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='kafka' date='16 February 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1266355609' post='2058010']
Mary said yes because God made Her Immaculate.
[/quote]

I am not a theologian, and I will stand corrected by the more learned members of the phorum if I speak in error, but I don't think this statement is completely correct.

Did God, in His wisdom, grant the Blessed Virgin the fruits of her Son's redemptive sufferings in advance, at the moment of her conception? Yes. The Immaculate Conception is without question. This prepared her to be the new Eve, the Ark of the New Covenant.

However, her fiat did not arise simply from her Immaculate state. It arose because she was cooperative with God and desired to do His Will. Mary still had free will. She was free to say no. Would that have been a sin? I don't necessarily think that refusing a free gift of God is a sin, perhaps I am wrong. However, her Immaculate Conception simply made the accomplishment of the Lord's plan complete. I don't think that it bound her to become the mother of Jesus. It simply disposed her correctly to be able to do so. God knew she would consent, but as with His omnicient state, it did not in any way diminish Mary's free will in choosing to consent.

I don't want to be a nitpicker, but that statement kind of leapt out at me.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='16 February 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1266357259' post='2058023']
I am not a theologian, and I will stand corrected by the more learned members of the phorum if I speak in error, but I don't think this statement is completely correct.

Did God, in His wisdom, grant the Blessed Virgin the fruits of her Son's redemptive sufferings in advance, at the moment of her conception? Yes. The Immaculate Conception is without question. This prepared her to be the new Eve, the Ark of the New Covenant.

However, her fiat did not arise simply from her Immaculate state. It arose because she was cooperative with God and desired to do His Will. Mary still had free will. She was free to say no. Would that have been a sin? I don't necessarily think that refusing a free gift of God is a sin, perhaps I am wrong. However, her Immaculate Conception simply made the accomplishment of the Lord's plan complete. I don't think that it bound her to become the mother of Jesus. It simply disposed her correctly to be able to do so. God knew she would consent, but as with His omnicient state, it did not in any way diminish Mary's free will in choosing to consent.

I don't want to be a nitpicker, but that statement kind of leapt out at me.
[/quote]
Wow I missed that, good point. Mary's fiat was entirely voluntary, she could have declined - free will is necessary even if you are without sin.

[kafka]

it was not entirely voluntary as if she choose to accept God's will by her own power. That is the problem.

In order to accomplish God's will God's sanctifying grace must be operating in one prior to any choice of the free will. This is prevenient or operating grace merited by Jesus Christ on the Cross. It does not force the free will rather it orders, and perfects the free will(and ones entire being) to the end and goal of one's existance which is God Himself. This is how God designed human nature. That free will would operate in harmony with sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is greater than free will since it is God operating in the soul and God is the proper end and goal of this operation. It is free and gratituous, since God is infinitely beyond the human nature. A human cannot go to God by his own power.

By virtue of the singular grace of Mary's Immaculate conception God's sanctifying grace operated more powerfully in her than in all Angels and Saints combined. It operated to such a depth, breadth, heightdth and width that she cooperated with all subsequent graces perfectly. So this is the mystery of the Immaculate Conception and the fiat. If the fiat was Mary's own doing then she would truly be Savior of the human race, since the Incarnation would be dependant on her free choice. Yet God created her in a way that she would choose His will by Him operating in her in a way beyond even Adam and Eve before the Fall. I dont have a perfect way of explaining this yet, but that is the general breakdown and problem. God created Mary in a unique way for the yes. We arent chosen to be created much less how we are created.

It isnt a matter of God always knew she would say yes, etc. It is much deeper than that. God's Infinite and Eternal plan of salvation could not have failed due to a choice of a finite human free will. The Incarnation is free and gratuitous, not merited by any human being. So this is a theological problem that needs to get broken down. I think the skelter key is the Immaculate Conception. The 'singular grace' of God in her is not just negative in that preserved her from original sin. There is a positive implied aspect I think that the 'singular grace' is also unique state of sanctifying grace operating in someway greater than Adam and Eve's before the Fall and even greater than all the glorified Angels and Saints put together. And this was from the first moment of her existance. The Immaculate Conception was Mary's baptism. This is the mystery.

Edited February 17, 2010 by kafka

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't think you can say grace operated in her more than the angels, after all she was a human being, and they are pure spirits created by God.
And again no matter how much grace she had, she still had free will. Without the operation of her free will she would not be a human being.

[Jaime]

[quote name='kafka' date='17 February 2010 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1266440814' post='2058467']
it was not entirely voluntary as if she choose to accept God's will by her own power. That is the problem.

In order to accomplish God's will God's sanctifying grace must be operating in one prior to any choice of the free will. This is prevenient or operating grace merited by Jesus Christ on the Cross. It does not force the free will rather it orders, and perfects the free will(and ones entire being) to the end and goal of one's existance which is God Himself. This is how God designed human nature. That free will would operate in harmony with sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is greater than free will since it is God operating in the soul and God is the proper end and goal of this operation. It is free and gratituous, since God is infinitely beyond the human nature. A human cannot go to God by his own power.

By virtue of the singular grace of Mary's Immaculate conception God's sanctifying grace operated more powerfully in her than in all Angels and Saints combined. It operated to such a depth, breadth, heightdth and width that she cooperated with all subsequent graces perfectly. So this is the mystery of the Immaculate Conception and the fiat. If the fiat was Mary's own doing then she would truly be Savior of the human race, since the Incarnation would be dependant on her free choice. Yet God created her in a way that she would choose His will by Him operating in her in a way beyond even Adam and Eve before the Fall. I dont have a perfect way of explaining this yet, but that is the general breakdown and problem. God created Mary in a unique way for the yes. We arent chosen to be created much less how we are created.

It isnt a matter of God always knew she would say yes, etc. It is much deeper than that. God's Infinite and Eternal plan of salvation could not have failed due to a choice of a finite human free will. The Incarnation is free and gratuitous, not merited by any human being. So this is a theological problem that needs to get broken down. I think the skelter key is the Immaculate Conception. The 'singular grace' of God in her is not just negative in that preserved her from original sin. There is a positive implied aspect I think that the 'singular grace' is also unique state of sanctifying grace operating in someway greater than Adam and Eve's before the Fall and even greater than all the glorified Angels and Saints put together. And this was from the first moment of her existance. The Immaculate Conception was Mary's baptism. This is the mystery.
[/quote]

It was entirely voluntary. This second paragraph is in serious error and needs to be rethought

[Apotheoun]

The process of salvation ([i]theosis[/i]) is all by grace and all by free will. Yes, it is another one of those Eastern Christian paradoxes.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 February 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1266447013' post='2058522']
The process of salvation ([i]theosis[/i]) is all by grace and all by free will. Yes, it is another one of those Eastern Christian paradoxes.
[/quote]

Todd I was trying to plus one you.

Dang now you're down to 14,539 points

[Lil Red]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='17 February 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1266447627' post='2058523']
Todd I was trying to plus one you.

Dang now you're down to 14,539 points
[/quote]
+JMJ+
fixed

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='17 February 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1266447013' post='2058522']
The process of salvation ([i]theosis[/i]) is all by grace and all by free will. Yes, it is another one of those Eastern Christian paradoxes.
[/quote]

I don't think it's paradoxical...mysterious, yes. However, God's grace is (at least to me, an unlearned layperson) working in disposing us properly to be able to give the assent of the will. At least that is how my finite mind understands it.

Apo, I always read your comments with enjoyment. Despite our East/West theological differences on some things, I think you have a remarkable way of clarifying some pretty tricky concepts.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='kafka' date='16 February 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1266355609' post='2058010']
Mary said yes because God made Her Immaculate. God made Mary Immaculate because of His salvific death on the Cross. The merits of the salvific death of Jesus Christ on the Cross transcends Space and Time. Without the salvific death of Jesus Christ Mary would not have recieved her Immaculate Conception, and would not have been able to say yes for the Incarnation. It is that simple. I belittle her nothing. I do her great honor, because she was the one chosen out of everyone to recieve the Immaculate Conception which was God's preparation for His Incarnation which He wrought dependent on no human being whatsoever. Mary assisted God, yet Mary does not save. In can be no other way.

I said 'so called' because the fifth marian dogma is a theological opinion that presumes there are only four Marian dogmas in the first place. There are more than five Marian dogmas in my theological opinion. But since it was confusing I will take that out.
[/quote]
You're awfully close to determinism. Just because Mary was Immaculate doesn't mean she couldn't have said no. Yes, the grace of doing what's right is always God's gift, but that doesn't make it any less Mary's act.

[kafka]

you say that only since you dont see the subtletly.

God's will was to Incarnate Himself in the womb of Mary. He revealed His will to Mary giving her the grace prior to His Revelation to cooperate with His plan. Once He revealed it to Mary she freely cooperated by the grace and power of God. That simple. By freely cooperating she merited to be the Mother of God. She merited the title. But the Incarnation was accomplished by God Himself, with Mary assisting Him. This isnt determinism. It is the mystery of free will cooperating in harmony with God's grace. Mary couldnt have turned her back on God since she was completely saved from the first moment of her existance by the very Passion and Death which God accomplished by Incarnating Himself.

Remember those Angels and Saints who experience the beautific vision can never turn their back on God and committ a serious sin. Yet Mary is made by God greater then all of them from the first moment of her existance though she didnt experience the immediate vision of God from the first moment of her existance. Instead she recieved the mediate vision of God, the Incarnation in her womb. This is some of the greatness and mystery of Mary.

This is roughly my view. It probably needs work, but it isnt deterministic. It only is if one interprets the power of God's grace as forcing free will which is absurd. If one does not cooperate with God's offer of grace that person's free will is damaged. It is maimed.

And Apotheon is right entirely grace and entirely free will. That is the sense I am explaining it though imperfectly. Trying to emphasize the grace part. Free will acting alone without grace is damaged, and powerless in accomplishing God's will and plan.

Edited February 18, 2010 by kafka

[Jaime]

[quote name='kafka' date='18 February 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1266522799' post='2058878']
you say that only since you dont see the subtletly.


[/quote]

LOL

or he's right and you are missing some discipline to your theological interpretations.