Die

[Don John of Austria]

Go, Inquisition Go!!!

Look Contrary to the garbage put out by many" history " ( and I use that term loosely) books, Programs and Professors the Inquisition as it is often prtrayed didn't happen. Even the Spainish Inquisision which was used for political as well as religious reasons( later in it's life) only convicted 4000 or so people in over 400 years of capital offenses and each of those where turned over to the state with a fervent request for mercy from the civil authorities. I would also remind you that many of the most ruthless inquisiters where racial Jews who had converted to Catholicism( particularly in Spain). No Inquisiter was ever removed for being to soft but several where removed for being to hard. And finally your statement about the Inquisition killing all that opposed the Roman Catholic Church is obviously fallacious Lutherians Exist, Calvanist Exist the Inquisition couldn't even scilence those to much less kill them( the Inquisition actually didn't have the power to execute that was a civil authority). More is the pity, If the Inquisition had been a bit more effective and less soft on Heretics maybe we wouldn't have a shattered Christiandom, Maybe there wouldn't have been a 30 years war( or numerous other wars) maybe we wouldn't have to deal with the Protestants because there wouldn't be any.

No the Inquisition was hardly the tyrannical institution that the " Black Legend" has made it out to be. The Black legend was created by Protestant england and the Book that was written in the 1500's on the Inquisition which is so often cited was written in england by Protestants, it was Propoganda nothing more.

[Don John of Austria]

Oh if you would like to discusss the Crusades as well I would love to do that, I don't have much time for Phatmass lately but I will try to respond to you in a timely manner.

[Donna]

[color=red]From the Chief Rabbi of Rome, shortly after World War II:[/color]

[i](Next post to follow: excerpts from NY Times 1941 Christmas Editorial)[/i]



[b]The Charity of Pope Pius XII
By Eugenio Zolli [/b]

[i]In this passage from his autobiography, Eugenio Zolli says he did not convert out of gratitude towards Pius XII (his conversion had deeper, more mystical roots), but that he deeply respects the Pope's work during World War II. [/i]

"Did you become a convert out of gratitude towards the Pope, who did so much for the Jews of Italy during the Nazi persecution?" This question was addressed to me, and still is, by reporters. In many interviews (inaccurate or invented) they describe me as answering in the affirmative. Why? I suppose to please readers by providing them with a precise and pleasing explanation. In reality my reply has always been in the negative, but this ought not to be interpreted as a lack of gratitude.


...At the very hour in which the terrible sacrificial rite of blood was initiated, the destruction en masse in the name of race, of nation, of the state, concentrating the three into one factor: "blood" — precisely then, in the midst of so many fanatics, the great Pontiff, unique, serene and wise, exclaims: "But the legitimate and just love towards one's own country must not close the eyes to the universality of Christian charity which also considers others and their prosperity in the pacifying light of love!"


...Volumes could be written on the multiform works of succour of Pius XII... Who could ever tell what has been done? The rule of severe enclosure falls, everything and all things are at the service of charity. As the sufferings grow, so grows the light from the heart of Christ, and from His Vicar: more vigilant and ready for sacrifice and martyrdom are his sons and daughters in Christ. Young Levites and white-haired priests, religious of alt orders, in all lands, dedicated Sisters, all in quest of good works and ready for sacrifice. There are no barriers, no distinctions. All sufferers are children of God in the eyes of the Church, children in Christ, for them and with them all suffer and die. No hero in history has commanded such an army; none is more militant, more fought against, none more heroic than that conducted by Pius XII in the name of Christian charity.


An old priest, who could do nothing further, gathered around him in the church the women and children of the village (the men had been slaughtered outside the village) so that they might die together in the presence of the crucifix. His dead body is thrown upon the altar, where once he celebrated the Holy Sacrifice, and there he lies, himself sacrificed. An army of priests works in cities and small towns to provide bread for the persecuted and passports for the fugitives. Sisters go into unheated canteens to give hospitality to women refugees. Orphans of all nations and religions are gathered together and cared for. No economic sacrifice is considered too great to help the innocent to flee to foreign lands from those who seek their death. A religious, a most learned man, works incessantly to save Jews, and himself dies a martyr. Sisters endure hunger to feed the refugees. Superiors go out in the night to meet strange soldiers who demand victims. They manage, at the risk of their lives, to convey the impression that they have none — they, who have several in their care.


The attic of one of the great churches in the center of Rome is divided into many sections, each bearing the name of the saint in whose honor the altar below is dedicated. The refugees are divided for the distribution of food into groups according to the names of these saints. Must not the soul of the saint rejoice in such a tribute? Schools, administrative offices, churches, convents all have their guests....


At the first hour of his pontificate Pius XII said: "Exactly in times like these, he who remains firm in his faith and strong in his heart, knows that Christ the King is never so near as in trial, which is the hour of fidelity. With a heart broken by the suffering of so many of her children, but with the courage and firmness that come from faith in the Lord's promises, the Spouse of Christ [the Church], advances towards the approaching storm. She knows that the truth she announces, the charity she teaches, and its practice will be the unique counsellors and collaborators of men of good will in the reconstruction of a new world, in justice and love, after humanity, weary of running in the way of error, will have tasted the bitter fruit of hatred and of violence."


Many are the books by statisticians, generals, journalists, and many are the memoirs of individuals concerning this great war. The archives hold quantities of material for future historians. But who, outside of God in heaven, has gathered into his heart the sorrows and the groans of all the injured? Like a watchful sentinel before the sacred inheritance of human pain stands the angelic Pastor, Pius XII. He has seen the abyss of misfortune towards which humanity is advancing. He has measured and foretold the greatness of the tragedy. He has made himself the herald of the serene voice of justice and the defender of true peace....


I did not hesitate to give a negative answer to the question whether I was converted in gratitude to Pius XII for his numberless acts of charity. Nevertheless, I do feel the duty of rendering homage and of affirming that the charity of the Gospel was the light that showed the way to my old and weary heart. It is the charity that so often shines in the history of the Church and which radiated fully in the actions of the reigning Pontiff.


— from [i]Before the Dawn[/i], Chapter 17

[url="http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm"]http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm[/url]

Edited April 13, 2004 by Donna

[Donna]

[color=red]The [i]New York Times [/i] being coherent in 1941-42:[/color]


The New York Times in its Christmas editorials of 1941 and 1942 praised Pius XII for his moral leadership as a "lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent" and for, among other things, assailing "the violent occupation of territory, and the exile and persecution of human beings, for no other reason than race." No other institution produced more heroes during the Holocaust than the Church: Italian, Slovak, French, Hungarian priests, nuns, and laypersons who risked and often gave their lives for the sake of persecuted Jews. This too deserves remembrance and respect.


([i]The Truth About Pope Pius XII [/i] by Sister Margherita Marchione. Ph.D.)


[url="http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm"]http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm[/url]

Edited April 13, 2004 by Donna

[Donna]

[color=red]Golda Meir:[/color]


Golda Meir, [color=red]Israel’s representative to the United Nations[/color], was the first of the delegates to react to the news of Pope Pius XII’s death. She sent an eloquent message: [b]"We share in the grief of humanity at the passing away of His Holiness, Pope Pius XII. In a generation afflicted by wars and discords he upheld the highest ideals of peace and compassion. When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for its victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out about great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace."[/b]


[url="http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm"]http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm[/url]

Edited April 13, 2004 by Donna

[Donna]

[color=red]Albert Einstein:[/color]


[color=red]The great Jewish physicist, Albert Einstein[/color], who himself barely escaped annihilation at Nazi hands, made the point well in 1944 when he said[i],[b] "Being a lover of freedom, when the Nazi revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, but the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, but they, like the universities were silenced in a few short weeks. Then I looked to individual writers . . . . they too were mute. Only the Church," Einstein concluded, "stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. . . . I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel great affection and admiration . . . . and am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly." [/b][/i]


[url="http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm"]http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm[/url]

Edited April 13, 2004 by Donna

[Donna]

[color=red]The Israeli diplomat and scholar Pinchas Lapide [/color]concluded his careful review of Pius XII’s wartime activities with the following words: [b]"The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." He went on to add that this "figure far exceeds those saved by all other Churches and rescue organizations combined." After recounting statements of appreciation from a variety of preeminent Jewish spokespersons, he noted.[color=red] "No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews .[/b][/color] . . .Several suggested in open letters that a Pope Pius XII forest of 860,000 trees be planted on the hills of Judea in order to fittingly honor the memory of the late Pontiff ("Three Popes and the Jews" pp. 214–215)." Levai in his own book did not hesitate to argue that the attacks on the Pope’s wartime record are "demonstrably malicious and fabricated . . . . The archives of the Vatican of diocesan authorities of Ribbentrop’s foreign ministry, contain a whole series of protests—direct and indirect, diplomatic and public, secret and open. The nuncios and bishops of the Catholic Church intervened again and again on the instructions of the Pope," he wrote. Their interventions were just as unsuccessful as the demands and threats of the British and American governments. Moreover, the delicacy of the matter was often heightened by the fact that such protests could put Jews themselves and their protectors at additional corporal risk.


[url="http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm"]http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm[/url]

[Donna]

Shall we let these eloquent Jewish supporters of Pius XII go on?

Perhaps the point is made.

[Lil Red]

QuietFire, Kilroy, Don John and Donna, et al.

YOU GUYS ROCK!

[Apollo]

[quote]Die Catholics Die.  [/quote]

Dear Ashley,

I don't know if you realize what you are saying when you say those words posted above. That is a completely unwarranted slap in the face.

I do not know you. I am not going to pretend to know you. But I can also feel confident in saying that you do not know me, at least no more so than I know you.

So just as you slapped me in the face before even bothering to introduce yourself to me or the others on this board, I did what I knew Christ would do...I turned the other cheek. I kept silent while you barraded me and my loved ones with countless prejudice comments and often times extremely irrational messages of hate. Yet still...I turned the other cheek.

You turned a deaf ear and mocked those who tried to reason with you. You insulted those who prayed for you.

I have bitten my tongue while I have watched others respond to your remarks. I agree with much of what others have said. I also feel that others have not been fair to you and responded in a manner that could be considered less than Christian. This is an unfortunate circumstance. On behalf of he phatmass family, I apologize.

However, I have come to the conclusion after reading your posts, that no one will ever crack the wall of hate and discontent you have for me and my beliefs. How can one grow and learn if one refuses to listen? I am not saying that you should not fight for what your heart tells you is right, but how can you call yourself a follower of Christ when the primary lesson He taught us during His all too brief time on this earth was to simply, "Love one another." You MUST love me. I MUST love you. Christ Jesus commands it.

[quote]Die Catholics Die.  [/quote]

Is this love?

I do love you, Ashley. You are my sister in Christ. However, until you show some form of openness to learn and grow and drop the "kill all Catholics" act, [b]I am boycotting posting from any thread started by you. I suggest all who read this do the same. [/b] I am not going to submit to the attention that you crave by stirring up controversy on this board. Everytime I get the urge to respond, and every time you expect to hear from me, please know that I will instead be way too busy loving you as my sister in Christ and praying that both of us grow closer to the Truth.

I hope and pray that this is not our last interaction. For if it is not...that will mean we have both made a step in the right direction.

May God Bless you Always,

Apollo aka Paul Calvin

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

Pope Pius XII rocks.

[jessinoelw]

[quote name='Ashley' date='Apr 10 2004, 02:28 PM'] Die Catholics Die. [/quote]
eh?

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

[quote name='Enda' date='Apr 10 2004, 06:35 PM'] Ashley:

According to a documentary done by the BBC the Spainish Inquistion is really more of a myth. Once you take out all the documents from unbiased people you discover that they likely only excuted about as many people a year as the state of Texas, and all of these people were posed an actual threat to the Spainish monarchy. It really wasn't that bad of an injustice. [/quote]
Finally someone said it!! Thanks.

[Homestarlover85]

[quote name='Ashley' date='Apr 10 2004, 04:10 PM'] It's a way of saying "You Catholics will pay one day."

Charity can be over-done.

I think Catholics chose to ignore the Catholic Church's involvement in the Inquisition, Crusades, etc.

I think my posts are just stating something you don't want to hear. [/quote]
Its a good thing us catholics wont pay one day, but not because of anything we have done..but because of the love and BLOOD of Christ :jesus:

[Quietfire]

Hey All,
First let me give a shout out to Lil Red Devil(heck of a name,huh?!) Thanks for the encouraging remark.
Secondly,
I cant believe this topic is still going on. I mean.... we could keep this up for days and weeks, but I think we beat the proverbial horse,eh? I leave you guys for a few days and mayhem!, sheer mayhem! LOL You all deserve a spankin' so line up, me first!

Ok, now that I've vented I would like to take this opportunity to let you all know(warn you!) that I will soon be starting a new thread(topic) soon, so I ask all to keep an eye out and please read and respond as honestly as you can. I wish I could start today, but it is late and I need my rest. Hopefully, by Monday I will have it up so LOOK OUT!!!

God Bless you all!