Hananiah Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 (edited) [quote]CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ[/quote] All the CCC is saying here is that invincible ignorance excuses one from the guilt of the sin of heresy. No one is denying that. However, invincible ignorance does not save. It neither saves nor condemns; it simply means that God will be more willing to grant the one in ignorance the grace of faith and repentance, as opposed to one in a state of culpable ignorance or willful heresy, whom God will place under the curse of 2 Thess 2:11-12. [quote]All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.[/quote] I agree that all Protestants who are properly baptized are made members of Christ's body, the Catholic Church, and can therefore properly be called Christians. However, if, at a later time, one willfully rejects the authority of the Catholic Church and denies subjection to the Roman Pontiff, he subsequently excludes himself from her membership and forsakes the right to that title. Edited April 12, 2004 by Hananiah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 i'm not changing the title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 [quote]But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.[/quote] See my previous post. See also the dogmatic statements in Unam Sanctam, Cantate Domino, et al. [quote]Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too.[/quote] Indeed. This happens every time a Protestant or Eastern Orthodox child is baptized. [quote]These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation. It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.[/quote] Again, I agree. Protestant churches perform baptisms and read from the Bible. Such actions are means of grace. The question is what do they do with this grace. Do they accept it and join the Catholic Church, or do they remain in hardness of heart and stay in their Protestant church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 [b]Again, I agree. Protestant churches perform baptisms and read from the Bible. Such actions are means of grace. The question is what do they do with this grace. Do they accept it and join the Catholic Church, or do they remain in hardness of heart and stay in their Protestant church? [/b] Have you ever been a Protestant? "Of course Catholics can't be Christians, if they became a Christian and started reading their Bible they would leave the Catholic Church and all its heresy." - Protestant pastor in Grand Rapids, MI. It's always much more complicated than you think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatPhred Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 So are we now in agreement that there is such a category as non-Catholic Christian according to Catholic teaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 whatever you agree on, just make sure you don't call me "brother," unless beckoning me to "come home." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 whoa, bruce....how did you channel your spirit into my body for that last post? that was cool lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 11 2004, 07:57 PM'] Have you ever been a Protestant? [/quote] I have been a de facto Protestant for the majority of my life. I went to mass on Christmas and may have described myself as Catholic, but I rejected transubstantiation, papal infallibility, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc. I found faith just a few years ago, and recieved Chrismation and my first Communion only yesterday. [quote]"Of course Catholics can't be Christians, if they became a Christian and started reading their Bible they would leave the Catholic Church and all its heresy." - Protestant pastor in Grand Rapids, MI.[/quote] I respect his opinion. One of us is right and the other is wrong. May God's truth prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 (edited) [quote name='PhatPhred' date='Apr 11 2004, 08:51 PM'] So are we now in agreement that there is such a category as non-Catholic Christian according to Catholic teaching? [/quote] Not necessarily. Certainly there can be Christians who are not formal members of the Catholic Church. However, there are no Christians who are not also spiritual members of the Catholic Church (such as baptized Protestant and EO children, RCIA candidates, etc). Hence anyone who can properly be called a Christian can also properly be called a Catholic. Edited April 12, 2004 by Hananiah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatPhred Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Well, are we at least in agreement as to the membership in the category of non-Catholic Christian as used in canon law? For example, canon law number 1118: [quote]Can. 1118 §1 A marriage between catholics, or between a catholic party and [b]a baptised non-catholic[/b], is to be celebrated in the parish church. By permission of the local Ordinary or of the parish priest, it may be celebrated in another church or oratory.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Again, not necessarily. I would say that a baptized non-Catholic would have been a Catholic at the time he was baptized, but at some later point would have excluded himself from the Catholic Church when he consciously denied subjection to the Pope. At that moment, he would have simultaneously ceased to be a Christian and ceased to be a Catholic, although the indellible mark or baptism would always remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 ooh, classify me! former catholic, baptized and confirmed, left the Church when i became a believer, baptized again (this time i consented to it). heretic? apostate? separated bretheren? separated apostatic heretical brother? heretical separate brotherly apostate? i'm just kidding....but for some odd reason i would like to know where i stand. somebody told me i'm catholic till i die, and there's nothing i can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 You will always be a fellow christian to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 11 2004, 10:33 PM'] You will always be a fellow christian to me. [/quote] yea, but you're a softee jk. you rock. what would the pope call me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatPhred Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 [quote name='mulls' date='Apr 11 2004, 11:29 PM']somebody told me i'm catholic till i die, and there's nothing i can do about it.[/quote] This is in fact correct according to canon law. The following is from the 2000 CLSA Commentary under canon law number 11: [quote]The law recognizes as Catholic anyone baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it. One is baptized in the Catholic Church by a Catholic minister or, in necessity, also by a non-Catholic minister, if the adult recipient or the parents or guardian of an infant intend a baptism into the Catholic Church (cf. c. 97 §2; 99). An infant of non-Catholic parents or guardian, baptized in danger of death by a Catholic minister, is a member of the church or ecclesial community of the parents or guardian, unless they intended the infant to be baptized and raised as a Catholic, or unless they are not Christians. Anyone seven or older with the use of reason who was baptized in a non-Catholic church or ecclesial community is received into the full communion of the Catholic Church by means of the [i]Rite of Reception of Baptized Christians into the Full Communion of the Catholic Church.[/i] Anyone under seven or without the use of reason who was baptized in a non-Catholic church or ecclesial community is received into the Catholic Church simply by a parent or guardian declaring his or her intention orally or in writing to the pastor of the local ordinary that the infant is to be received into the Catholic Church and will be raised in the Catholic religion. [b]Once a Catholic by baptism or reception, one always remains a Catholic ([i]semel catholicus, semper catholicus[/i]). Even those who have joined another religion, have become atheists or agnostics, or have been excommunicated remain Catholics.[/b] Excommunicates lose rights, such as the right to the sacraments, but they are still bound to the obligations of the law; their rights are restored when they are reconciled through the remission of the penalty. In three instances, the code grants an exemption from certain requirements of marriage law for the benefit of Catholics who have left the Church by means of a formal act (cc. 1086, §1; 1117; 1124). Although such Catholics have formally joined another religion or made it known in some formal way that they are not Catholic, they are still Catholic in virtue of baptism or reception and may be reconciled to the Church whenever they choose to conform to the requirements of the law.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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