Non-catholic Christians?

[CatholicCrusader]

I saw this in the "pinned" section of apologetics, and I was going to ask this in there; however, I know this would be moved because I assume there will be a debate. It says, in the pinned section header: "Pinned: Non-catholic Groups: Christian". Is this not a contradiction?

God bless.

[ilovechrist]

that's what i thought too ... i think dUSt, or someone might need to address that

[dUSt]

There are Christian groups who don't call themselves Catholic. What's the question?

[homeschoolmom]

I don't get what the "debate" is... Protestants and Orthodox aren't Catholic... but they *are* Christian... Or are you implying that Catholics aren't Christian?

[Brother Adam]

They are implying, my guess would be, that if your a Christian you are a Catholic, member of the visible church or not.

[PhatPhred]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 11 2004, 10:59 AM']They are implying, my guess would be, that if your a Christian you are a Catholic, member of the visible church or not.[/quote]
This implication is against Church teaching (Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism) and Church canon law (e.g., canon law number 755).

[Hananiah]

Quote, please. I'm willing to bet I can reconcile them with Unam Sanctam, Cantate Domino, et al.

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]QUOTE (Brother Adam @ Apr 11 2004, 10:59 AM)
They are implying, my guess would be, that if your a Christian you are a Catholic, member of the visible church or not.


This implication is against Church teaching (Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism) and Church canon law (e.g., canon law number 755). [/quote]

and

[quote]I don't get what the "debate" is... Protestants and Orthodox aren't Catholic... but they *are* Christian[/quote]

My implication was actually if you are a Christian you are Catholic (meaning only those inside the Church are Christian). Protestant heresies such as Lutheranism or even "Orthodox" (misnomer) religions are not Christian, for Our Lord said to follow Him you must follow all His laws, not just some (as all schismatic and heretics do--only some, if any). The Church has never referred to anyone outside the visible Church as Christian in a dogmatic document (I think the Church may have done so in Vat. II, but it was not dogmatic. It was pastoral.) Anyway, that is what my implication is, so, dUst, how can you justify:

[quote]There are Christian groups who don't call themselves Catholic.[/quote]

The Church does not recognize them as Christian, so how can we do such as still call ourselves Catholic?

God bless.

P.S. I stand by Hananiah--I will attempt to reconcile any new false eccumenism with Unam Sanctam, Cantate Domino (which he listed), as well as the Council of Florence and the writings of almost every Doctor of the Church.

Edited April 11, 2004 by CatholicCrusader

[Brother Adam]

The Church does not recognize them as Christian, so how can we do such as still call ourselves Catholic?

Pope John Paul II would disagree with you in his book "Crossing the Threshold of Faith"

[Hananiah]

[quote]Can. 755 §1. It is above all for the entire college of bishops and the Apostolic See to foster and direct among Catholics the ecumenical movement whose purpose is the restoration among all Christians of the unity which the Church is bound to promote by the will of Christ.[/quote]
It seems to imply that non-Catholic's can be Christians, but I wouldn't go building doctrine on an obscure passage of canon law which doesn't even treat directly of the question at hand. It would seem more prudent to look for the answer to this question in a clear statement in a document which deals with it directly.

[quote]We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)[/quote]

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]The Church does not recognize them as Christian, so how can we do such as still call ourselves Catholic?

Pope John Paul II would disagree with you in his book "Crossing the Threshold of Faith"[/quote]

JPII's book isn't infallible...Church dogma is, and I trust a Saint's writing more than the current Pope:

"let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and [b]faith of the Catholic Church[/b] from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preached by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; [b][u]and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian[/u][/b]…" Saint Athanasius

That is more binding than the Pope's opinion, for we value the early Church Father's writings as an explanation of Tradition from the first Christians (ONLY CATHOLICS!).

God bless.

[Joseph]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Apr 10 2004, 12:01 PM'] I saw this in the "pinned" section of apologetics, and I was going to ask this in there; however, I know this would be moved because I assume there will be a debate. It says, in the pinned section header: "Pinned: Non-catholic Groups: Christian". Is this not a contradiction?

God bless. [/quote]
[quote]818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 [/quote]

It looks like the Catholic Church is calling Protestants fellow Christians right there in the CCC.

[PhatPhred]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html"]Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism[/url] is unambiguous that non-Catholics can be Christians and can be indwelled with the Holy Spirit:

[quote name='UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO']3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned.  But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. [b]For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.[/b] The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. [b]But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and [u]have a right to be called Christian[/u], and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.[/b]

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; [b]the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit[/b], and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. [b]These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.[/b]

[b]It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.[/b]  For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.[/quote]

[Brother Adam]

How about the Bible: "All those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved"

Your church teaches that if someone is ignorant, not by their own will of the Catholic Church than they are not held responsible. If someone accepts the truth in the Catholic church but still rejects it they are then responsible.

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
4/11 - Easter Sunday

The opinion of the Church Fathers is held in very high esteem indeed, but we must realize that they're not inspired - if you read Cardinal Newman's [i]Development of Christian Doctrine[/i], you'll see that he outlines doctrines the Fathers held that the Church now condemns. Were they heretics? Of course not - but their opinions can only be trusted so far.