Clinton Township Carmelites

[jumpfrog]

Hi, I am in contact with this monastery, but I am concerned about being a bother to them...I am curious about their lives as sisters, but I think that mere curiosity is not a good reason to take up their time via email. (I am still in the very early stages of discerning.) I wonder if anyone can share some experiences or knowledge about this community? If this request is improper, I would be glad to know that as well...

[AccountDeleted]

Here is their website
[url="http://www.rc.net/detroit/carmelite/"]Clinton Township Carmelites[/url]

Are you looking for a particularly traditional Carmel? Because they are not that. They have made some modifications to their lifestyle that I personally do not feel comfortable with, but that is not to say that you or others might not find them very acceptable.

I think for any real information you should not worry about bothering them, but ask every one of your questions to the Prioress directly. It is her responsibility to help you discern with them.

It is your life you are talking about here, so get all the facts and pay a visit as well before deciding.

And if possible, check out a few others as well so you can see the differences between one Carmel and another.

[jumpfrog]

Thanks for that...I really do not know much about Carmelite traditions, but from what I have gathered, there are lots of elaborate rules and customs for every aspect of living...it seems a little intimidating, how can someone remember them all! Is Clinton similar in this way?

[Two Hearts]

Nunsense is not giving bad advice, but she does prefer an extremely traditional Carmelite way of life.

This is a beautiful community and very warm and welcoming. I know a few women who discerned with them and one who entered and made solemn vows. They have found a lovely balance for their way of life and are completely in union with Rome and the Holy Father. I do not agree with their age limit guideline, for I believe only God knows if He has called someone at a more mature age and it would be lovely if communities supported this - it is a good sign is a Community has an open heart in this area, but does not mean it in not wonderful and authentic community.

If you are truly discerning then it is not idle curiosity, even in the early stages: Do you want to know more about this particular Carmel or Carmelite life in general? If in general, then there is much to be found on line to read or many books that will help you to understand Carmelite spirituality. Certainly ask lots of questions in the Vocation Phorum - we have members who have been in Carmels, and will be happy to answer questions - remember though, that each Carmel may do things a little differently, so actual day to day life in a monastery can be different.

I think a good guideline in asking questions would be to be polite and mannerly - do not ask anything so personal that you would be offended if someone asked you the same type of questions.

In time, you will get to know them through your correspondence and visits - then if both sides feel God may be calling you to this Carmel, a live-in can be arranged for you to get to know one another better and you to see the life up close.

Try not to worry. God is at work in your heart!
Many blessings on your discernment!
P.S. Every community has traditions they follow - especially contemplatives - really these customs are very beautiful and one does learn them easily, but can be intimidating when one is new. It can sound like more in reading than living it! No doubt Clinton does have some of these, but try not to make decisions based on their customs.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Two Hearts

[vee]

Looking at your location I see you are in Korea and a quick search turned up 8 Carmels there.[url="http://www.discalcedcarmel.com/index.php?Seccion=asiaodir&CodNacion=109"] link [/url]Maybe one of them is close enough that you could go for a visit? Simply to attend Mass in the chapel and even perhaps ask a few questions to a sister about their life.

You also said you are new to discerning a possible vocation so ideally one of the first things you should have is a good priest, religious, or layman to help guide you as a spiritual director. If you dont think of anyone then talk to you parish priest and see if he might be able to be your spiritual director or can recommend someone who can.

[HisChild]

Even if you are in the first stages of discernment, it's still good to learn about communities, especially if you're attracted to them, for whatever reason. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to share a little about their lives with you. Have you ever read MY BELOVED by Mother Catherine Thomas? It's out of print but a good way to get an intro into some rubrics and spirit of Carmelite life.

I agree with Two Hearts. Each Carmel is a little different. I've done some discernment with three of them over the past several years and learned some things through my visits, ie: one had simple twin mattresses on regular frames, another used the traditional sawhorse frames. One had a really thick grille in the speak room, the other had a more widely spaced grille.

Some, you'll learn, have the traditional floor length habit with the full veil and toque. Some now wear modified habits and veils. However, when all is said and done, really, it depends on only if they are in communion with Rome, if they're truly loyal to the Magesterium, and what their spirit is, not what their bed looks like or what gesture they make as they pass a statue.

With my discernment to religious life in general, I would have to say that I wouldn't judge a community only based on how well they follow the traditions and rubrics. I've met sisters from some incredibly traditional communities who were not so nice, who sat around the recreation table picking apart other communities, commenting on prior discerners and were more concerned with the 'letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law'. I've also met some communities who allowed for some simples changes over the years to their communities, but still I considered them to be pretty traditional sisters, (I won't give examples, because it's all relative-some might consider major changes and others would consider minor changes) but were the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate and vivacious sisters I'd ever met.

So, I'd say, if you feel curious, which could also be nudging from the Holy Spirit, ask your questions, always being polite, and like Two Hearts said, a good litmus test is to think of how you would feel if they were ask you the same questions. See if you continue to feel drawn to them. If you go for a visit, does it feel like 'home' to your heart. See how they live and ponder in your heart if you could be called to live this way.

In the end, it's good to listen to others when they speak of objectives, like 'here is their prayer schedule', ' this is their website', 'here is what their habit looks like', 'here is a picture of their chapel'. Stuff like that. But, I would steer clear of opinions, bad OR good. Especially in a public forum like this one, you will ALWAYS find someone who had a bad experience with one community or heard about a bad experience from another ... and another who has nothing but good to say about them. None of that matters and their experiences may not be yours. It only matters what the Holy Spirit says to your heart and if you remain open to His leanings and guidance.

Heh. I must have written too much because it cut off part of my post! I was going to say that I hope I hadn't written too much, or stepped over the line in adding more than you asked. Mea culpa if I did.

I'll pray for you in your discernment!

Edited February 6, 2010 by HisChild

[Two Hearts]

[quote name='HisChild' date='06 February 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1265475548' post='2051995']
Even if you are in the first stages of discernment, it's still good to learn about communities, especially if you're attracted to them, for whatever reason. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to share a little about their lives with you. Have you ever read MY BELOVED by Mother Catherine Thomas? It's out of print but a good way to get an intro into some rubrics and spirit of Carmelite life.

I agree with Two Hearts. Each Carmel is a little different. I've done some discernment with three of them over the past several years and learned some things through my visits, ie: one had simple twin mattresses on regular frames, another used the traditional sawhorse frames. One had a really thick grille in the speak room, the other had a more widely spaced grille.

Some, you'll learn, have the traditional floor length habit with the full veil and toque. Some now wear modified habits and veils. However, when all is said and done, really, it depends on only if they are in communion with Rome, if they're truly loyal to the Magesterium, and what their spirit is, not what their bed looks like or what gesture they make as they pass a statue.

With my discernment to religious life in general, I would have to say that I wouldn't judge a community only based on how well they follow the traditions and rubrics. I've met sisters from some incredibly traditional communities who were not so nice, who sat around the recreation table picking apart other communities, commenting on prior discerners and were more concerned with the 'letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law'. I've also met some communities who allowed for some simples changes over the years to their communities, but still I considered them to be pretty traditional sisters, (I won't give examples, because it's all relative-some might consider major changes and others would consider minor changes) but were the kindest, gentlest, most compassionate and vivacious sisters I'd ever met.

So, I'd say, if you feel curious, which could also be nudging from the Holy Spirit, ask your questions, always being polite, and like Two Hearts said, a good litmus test is to think of how you would feel if they were ask you the same questions. See if you continue to feel drawn to them. If you go for a visit, does it feel like 'home' to your heart. See how they live and ponder in your heart if you could be called to live this way.

In the end, it's good to listen to others when they speak of objectives, like 'here is their prayer schedule', ' this is their website', 'here is what their habit looks like', 'here is a picture of their chapel'. Stuff like that. But, I would steer clear of opinions, bad OR good. Especially in a public forum like this one, you will ALWAYS find someone who had a bad experience with one community or heard about a bad experience from another ... and another who has nothing but good to say about them. None of that matters and their experiences may not be yours. It only matters what the Holy Spirit says to your heart and if you remain open to His leanings and guidance.
[/quote]

Beautiful advice!

[MithLuin]

I've never discerned religious life (I hang out in this forum because of my sister), but I have been in contact with three different Carmels. They were very polite and gracious about responding to my e-mails, and one even invited me to come and stay with them as a sort of retreat. If they were this willing to let me take up their time when I wasn't discerning with their community at all (just trying to find my way in life, I guess), I imagine other communities would be happy to write to you even if you are a 'baby' discerner.

In other words, if you feel you are sending too many e-mails or sending them too frequently, go ahead and back off for a little bit, but don't feel that it is too much to maintain a correspondence. As cloistered sisters, it is part of their ministry to speak to people in this way - I'm sure they get e-mails from people who are not discerning at all, but just interested in prayers or advice.

As for the idle curiosity bit...it sounds like you honestly don't know very much about religious life, and therefore might have a lot of questions about how things work. My advice would be not to pester them with detailed questions about every little thing, but to ask some open-ended questions about their lifestyle, allowing them to answer you as they feel comfortable, and to do other research on the web/reading to get some more details filled in. All Carmels may be different, but there is a particular charism to Carmelites that is common to all of them - even the groups that are not remotely traditional and probably wouldn't be considered by any members of Phatmass.

[Indwelling Trinity]

Clinton township is a very beautiful community in many ways. They are traditional yet have updated and done away with some minor things. The community is a humble unassuming community but does not like complications. Most are elderly except for the Prioress and novice Mistress both in their fifties or so. the rest run in the seventies to eighties. They are simple, loving, beautiful in many ways and have pretty good poverty for a Carmel.

They often have one hermit day a week and the balance of the regular life is not strained or legalistic. Like any community they have their shortcomings but all in all i found them a very and joyfilled and loving community. Last time i spoke with them they had one postulant. I do not know if she is still there.

The difficulty I find in many Carmels is not the life but the lack of tolerance in allowing a person time to grow. Older vocations generally do not do well in Carmel but that is not an absolute. As far as customs in Carmel, they are pretty simple. the hardest thing is learning the rubrics when saying the office and keeping on the right page; but no no one is going to hit you over the head with that.

Having been in Carmel i know that even though one can address the prioress and novice Mistress with problems, Many interior problems you must go through with Jesus and yourself alone and that is hard. At times things will be wrong and no one will correct you for it until it is too late in their book. That is the Achillles heel for many Carmels and has resulted in brokenness in many vocations.

We Carmelites need to be more patient and compassionate. It is a beautiful life that words cannot explain but also a very demanding life spiritually. But, Love conquers all! It is surely not the life for the faint of heart or soul but rather demands a certain resoluteness and willingness to walk alone in faith.

I am sure that others who have lived Carmel can attest to this. I hope this is a realistic view of Carmel. By no mens is it meant to discourage for if one truly has the vocation to Carmel she cannot look back but only continue to follow her Lord in naked faith and love and in that Love she will find a joy the world can never give even in the smallest way!

tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 February 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1265522035' post='2052336']
Clinton township is a very beautiful community in many ways. They are traditional yet have updated and done away with some minor things. The community is a humble unassuming community but does not like complications. Most are elderly except for the Prioress and novice Mistress both in their fifties or so. the rest run in the seventies to eighties. They are simple, loving, beautiful in many ways and have pretty good poverty for a Carmel.

They often have one hermit day a week and the balance of the regular life is not strained or legalistic. Like any community they have their shortcomings but all in all i found them a very and joyfilled and loving community. Last time i spoke with them they had one postulant. I do not know if she is still there.

The difficulty I find in many Carmels is not the life but the lack of tolerance in allowing a person time to grow. Older vocations generally do not do well in Carmel but that is not an absolute. As far as customs in Carmel, they are pretty simple. the hardest thing is learning the rubrics when saying the office and keeping on the right page; but no no one is going to hit you over the head with that.

Having been in Carmel i know that even though one can address the prioress and novice Mistress with problems, Many interior problems you must go through with Jesus and yourself alone and that is hard. At times things will be wrong and no one will correct you for it until it is too late in their book. That is the Achillles heel for many Carmels and has resulted in brokenness in many vocations.

We Carmelites need to be more patient and compassionate. It is a beautiful life that words cannot explain but also a very demanding life spiritually. But, Love conquers all! It is surely not the life for the faint of heart or soul but rather demands a certain resoluteness and willingness to walk alone in faith.

I am sure that others who have lived Carmel can attest to this. I hope this is a realistic view of Carmel. By no mens is it meant to discourage for if one truly has the vocation to Carmel she cannot look back but only continue to follow her Lord in naked faith and love and in that Love she will find a joy the world can never give even in the smallest way!

tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]


This is a beautiful description of some of the challenges facing the person who wants to enter a Carmelite Monastery today, and I agree wholeheartedly with what IT has written, especially the statement,
[quote] The difficulty I find in many Carmels is not the life but the lack of tolerance in allowing a person time to grow.[/quote]

I was discussing this with my sister when she asked if I thought that perhaps I was asked to leave Carmel because I hadn't beeen keeping the Rule perfectly. I said that maybe she was right, knowing that I have many faults, but then later when I thought about this, I realized that asking a postulant to keep the Rule perfectly is like asking a first year law student during Orientation week to present a case for the defense before the bar! The Postulancy and Novitiate should be a time of learning and growing and for each person this takes a different amount of time, that is why the length of time for each of these periods is flexible to some degree. I think the some Prioresses today have the idea that they can immediately ascertain whether someone will 'succeed' at religious life or not, so they make premature decisions based on personal feelings instead of allowing the process to unfold.

Thank you for this thoughtful and well written post Indwelling Trinity.

[Two Hearts]

[quote name='nunsense' date='07 February 2010 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1265523182' post='2052354']
This is a beautiful description of some of the challenges facing the person who wants to enter a Carmelite Monastery today, and I agree wholeheartedly with what IT has written, especially the statement,


I was discussing this with my sister when she asked if I thought that perhaps I was asked to leave Carmel because I hadn't beeen keeping the Rule perfectly. I said that maybe she was right, knowing that I have many faults, but then later when I thought about this, I realized that asking a postulant to keep the Rule perfectly is like asking a first year law student during Orientation week to present a case for the defense before the bar! The Postulancy and Novitiate should be a time of learning and growing and for each person this takes a different amount of time, that is why the length of time for each of these periods is flexible to some degree. I think the some Prioresses today have the idea that they can immediately ascertain whether someone will 'succeed' at religious life or not, so they make premature decisions based on personal feelings instead of allowing the process to unfold.

Thank you for this thoughtful and well written post Indwelling Trinity.
[/quote]

Indwelling Trinity and Nunsense - beautifully explained. Thank you.

[jumpfrog]

thanks for the replies...I am a little scared to ask too many questions, in case I 'say the wrong thing' especially since I am new to the faith; I am really afraid to say too much of what is in my head, in case I turn them off. On the other hand, I know this is a kind of controlling and anxious attitude, and not well-advised!

It is interesting to hear that commiunities seem like they don't really give people time to adapt...maybe it is because the communities are on the small side, and the prioress does not want disturbances, and also wants to let go of an unsuitable candidate before too many attachments are formed...I don't know.

I did send a few questions to the novice mistress...

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' date='07 February 2010 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1265523182' post='2052354']
This is a beautiful description of some of the challenges facing the person who wants to enter a Carmelite Monastery today, and I agree wholeheartedly with what IT has written, especially the statement,


I was discussing this with my sister when she asked if I thought that perhaps I was asked to leave Carmel because I hadn't beeen keeping the Rule perfectly. I said that maybe she was right, knowing that I have many faults, but then later when I thought about this, I realized that asking a postulant to keep the Rule perfectly is like asking a first year law student during Orientation week to present a case for the defense before the bar! The Postulancy and Novitiate should be a time of learning and growing and for each person this takes a different amount of time, that is why the length of time for each of these periods is flexible to some degree. I think the some Prioresses today have the idea that they can immediately ascertain whether someone will 'succeed' at religious life or not, so they make premature decisions based on personal feelings instead of allowing the process to unfold.

Thank you for this thoughtful and well written post Indwelling Trinity.
[/quote]

Hugs Nunsense!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='08 February 2010 - 10:49 AM' timestamp='1265586596' post='2052810']
Hugs Nunsense!
[/quote]


Hugs to you two InDwell! I'm okay now. Writing the book has worked out a lot of this for me, and now I am just having fun with it! I am looking forward to meeting with my SD when the six months are up at the end of Feb to start discerning again. I have no idea what he will say, but for me it will be , 'Just a closer walk with Thee...' again. Life is good. God is good.

Edited February 7, 2010 by nunsense

[Marie-Therese]

Jumpfrog, I happen to know the Prioress of this community well, and I can tell you that she is a warm, wise and beautiful woman. I have had many fruitful spiritual conversations with her, and I believe her to be a paragon of Christian virtue. She has given me invaluable advice on several occasions. I am sure that she and the novice mistress would be very helpful in answering any of your questions.

The Carmelite vocation is one that is very special, but like any walk of life, it has its own special complications. I pray for you in your discernment!