And There You Have It. We All Are Paying For The "morning After&#3

[JimR-OCDS]

Nihil Obstat'

[quote]
It doesn't matter that abortion was already legal. Kennedy has formally supported abortion in the past. As a Catholic, he is automatically excommunicated. Clearly he's missed a lot of his education in Catholic beliefs, so at the very best I'll call him a nominal Catholic. Certainly not what should be called a real Catholic.
[/quote]

It matters in understanding the legislation in which he voted on. His Bishop said on Chris Matthews, that he himself didn't have the legal expertise to know how to write a law to make abortion illegal. Well, how is it he knows enough about the laws Kennedy voted on, to excommunicated him?

[quote]
RE: Penalties for abortion

First off, the penalty is irrelevant to the morality.
[/quote]

I agree. But we're talking about making abortion illegal, because it is immoral.


[quote]
You are implying that because we have no advocated a particular penalty, we have no grounds to morally oppose its continuing legality.
[/quote]

No, we have no grounds to demand a law that we can't define a penalty for, to a society who doesn't accept that its an immoral act.

[quote]
This is ridiculous and not even worthy of a response. Unfortunately I'm a sucker so I'm going to respond anyway. If I "had my druthers", as you so quaintly put it, to begin with I would push a manslaughter penalty onto the woman, first degree murder for the abortionist, and some sort of aiding and abetting for anyone who pressured the woman.
[/quote]

And you would be laughed out of congress for suggesting that a Jewish or Muslim doctor, be thrown in jail for life, for performing an early term abortion which they do not believe is immoral.
You know beaver dam right well you could not pass this type of law, nor would it in itself be moral to force this penalty onto those who don't share your belief.


[quote]
HOWEVER my personal views on how abortion could be punished are perfectly irrelevant to my belief that abortion must be illegal.
[/quote]

Its relevant if you're demanding that your representative in government make it illegal.

[quote]
As I said before, this strange argument of yours is so ludicrous that it really doesn't deserve a response from any rational person. I guess I'm just humouring you.
[/quote]

Pulease. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Jim

Edited February 8, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Winchester' date='08 February 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1265655046' post='2053475']
Anger is clouding my reason. Time to take a break.
[/quote]

The school recess bell ring? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_roll.gif[/img]


Jim

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1265653800' post='2053446']
But please answer the question.

If you believe abortion is murder and abortion could be made illegal if you had it your way, what should the penalty be for women and doctors who break the law?
[/quote]
Do you always develop law in reverse? Laws against speeding were not enacted because it was determined cops could write tickets.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='08 February 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1265655357' post='2053483']
Do you always develop law in reverse? Laws against speeding were not enacted because it was determined cops could write tickets.
[/quote]


Abortion is currently legal.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='08 February 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1265655046' post='2053475']
Anger is clouding my reason. Time to take a break.
[/quote]

I played a few games of Reversi. Takes a ton of concentration for me to beat the computer at the level I'm at.
[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1265655067' post='2053476']
Nihil Obstat'



It matters in understanding the legislation in which he voted on. His Bishop said on Chris Matthews, that he himself didn't have the legal expertise to know how to write a law to make abortion illegal. Well, how is it he knows enough about the laws Kennedy voted on, to excommunicated him?



I agree. But we're talking about making abortion illegal, because it is immoral.




No, we have no grounds to demand a law that we can't define a penalty for, to a society who doesn't accept that its an immoral act.



And you would be laughed out of congress for suggesting that a Jewish or Muslim doctor, be thrown in jail for life, for performing an early term abortion which they do not believe is immoral.
You know beaver dam right well you could not pass this type of law, nor would it in itself be moral to force this penalty onto those who don't share your belief.




Its relevant if you're demanding that your representative in government make it illegal.



Pulease. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Jim
[/quote]
You said: It matters in understanding the legislation in which he voted on. His Bishop said on Chris Matthews, that he himself didn't have the legal expertise to know how to write a law to make abortion illegal. Well, how is it he knows enough about the laws Kennedy voted on, to excommunicated him?

I reply: No, it doesn't matter. You don't need to know a thing about laws to know what is immoral and what is not. I can tell you, I've got no experience in law, but I'm perfectly comfortable with slavery, murder, theft, and assault being illegal.


You said: And you would be laughed out of congress for suggesting that a Jewish or Muslim doctor, be thrown in jail for life, for performing an early term abortion which they do not believe is immoral.
You know beaver dam right well you could not pass this type of law, nor would it in itself be moral to force this penalty onto those who don't share your belief.

I reply: In some forms of theistic Satanism (please note 'theistic') murder may very well not be prohibited. Maybe it's even encouraged. It's still illegal, and I'm quite prepared to throw that individual in prison for life. Even if they believe it's perfectly moral. They don't share my belief, and I don't care. I still want them in prison.


You said: Its relevant if you're demanding that your representative in government make it illegal.

I reply: Do we not have the right to demand that our representatives represent our opinions in a national level? I believe that's why we elect them. Even if we don't get the rep we want, we're still entitled to ask (or demand) that they follow our opinions. Maybe they won't, but it's our right to demand it anyway. I think they call that representative democracy or something.


You said: No, we have no grounds to demand a law that we can't define a penalty for, to a society who doesn't accept that its an immoral act.

I reply: Slavery has been brought up about five times now and you never addressed it. Let me play with your quote for a moment. "We have no grounds to demand that slavery be outlawed if we can't define a penalty for, to a society who doesn't accept that slavery is an immoral act."
Despicable, isn't it? I'll bet someone said it, at some point.

[JimR-OCDS]

I'm taking a break from this thread.

Just to be clear.

I support Church teaching on abortion.

I oppose funding for abortion.

I don't believe that making a law to outlaw all levels of abortion is doable and in no way would
I want to see doctors or women thrown into prison for performing or having an early term abortion.




Jim

Edited February 8, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1265655885' post='2053492']
I'm taking a break from this thread.

Just to be clear.

I support Church teaching on [s]abortion[/s] [b]murder[/b].

I oppose funding for [s]abortion[/s] [b]murder[/b].

I don't believe that making a law to outlaw all levels of [s]abortion[/s] [b]murder[/b] is doable and I in no way would
I want to see [s]doctors[/s] [b][s]abortionists[/s][/b] [b]murderers[/b] or women thrown into prison for [s]performing or having an early term abortion[/s] [b]murdering babies[/b].




Jim
[/quote]


The Church sees the two as synonymous.

Hope this helps.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1265655517' post='2053489']
Abortion is currently legal.
[/quote]
This should help in understanding my point.
[quote name='kamiller42' date='08 February 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1265655357' post='2053483']
Do you always develop law in reverse? Laws against [s]speeding[/s] abortion [s]were[/s] are not enacted because it was determined [s]cops could write tickets[/s] violators could be punished.
[/quote]

[JimR-OCDS]

Nihil Obstat

[quote]
The Church sees the two as synonymous.
[/quote]

No she doesn't.

No Bishop that I know of, has ever advocated that women who have abortions nor the
doctors who performed them, be thrown in prison for murder.



Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='08 February 2010 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1265656186' post='2053497']
This should help in understanding my point.

[/quote]

When abortion was illegal, it was a punishable offense.

If there is no penalty, the law is meaningless. People wll just ignore it otherswise.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1265656474' post='2053498']
Nihil Obstat



No she doesn't.

No Bishop that I know of, has ever advocated that women who have abortions nor the
doctors who performed them, be thrown in prison for murder.



Jim
[/quote]
Be that as it may, the abortionist is a murderer. The woman is at best not culpable, but she has participated in murder (unless it was a forced abortion).

We've been through this already. Abortion = murder, and no other position is acceptable to the Church.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1265656590' post='2053500']
When abortion was illegal, it was a punishable offense.

If there is no penalty, the law is meaningless. People wll just ignore it otherswise.
[/quote]
So you agree with us that abortion is morally wrong and should be illegal and are now moving on to debate exactly what the punishments should be. You answer your question. It was a punishable offense and that would be a good place to start in answering your questions about enforcement.

For those still believing the justification of a law hinges on its enforceability, specifically its punishment, let's say a $100 fine for each abortion. Now that the law is meaningful, let's you and me get started saving lives by protecting the right to life.

Do you ever wonder if Abraham Lincoln came to the decision to abolish slavery like this, "We can have a war over slavery; therefore, slavery is wrong and should be prohibited by law?" That would be weird.

[JimR-OCDS]

kamiller

[quote]
So you agree with us that abortion is morally wrong [/quote]

Yes

[quote]
and should be illegal
[/quote]

I don't believe it can be made illegal, which is my point.

[quote]
and are now moving on to debate exactly what the punishments should be.
[/quote]

That's what makes the law enforceable or not.

[quote]
You answer your question. It was a punishable offense and that would be a good place to start in answering your questions about enforcement.
[/quote]

Depends.

[quote]
For those still believing the justification of a law hinges on its enforceability, specifically its punishment, let's say a $100 fine for each abortion. Now that the law is meaningful, let's you and me get started saving lives by protecting the right to life.
[/quote]

$100 fine would be laughable. Besides, abortion is murder, and we don't fine murderers $100.


[quote]Do you ever wonder if Abraham Lincoln came to the decision to abolish slavery like this, "We can have a war over slavery; therefore, slavery is wrong and should be prohibited by law?" That would be weird. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/upsidedown.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Did you ever wonder how it is, that Abraham Lincoln go us into a war where 600,000 men were killed, while Europe and other nations outlawed slavery without firing a shot?

Also keep in mind, the majority of people, even those in the South, opposed slavery.

The same can't be said of abortion.

If we're going to outlaw abortion, lets not take up arms and go to war over it as some have done because after all, its murder.


Jim

Edited February 8, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1265658884' post='2053529']
Also keep in mind, the majority of people, even those in the South, opposed slavery.

The same can't be said of abortion.


Jim
[/quote]
That's two statements which require proof.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1265658884' post='2053529']
I don't believe it can be made illegal, which is my point.[/quote]
But you do believe it [b]should[/b] be illegal. Your disagreement is how it can be [b]made[/b] illegal, i.e. implemented.

[quote]$100 fine would be laughable. Besides, abortion is murder, and we don't fine murderers $100.[/quote]
For you and me, those who believe abortion is murder, $100 is laughable. We believe murder deserves a stiffer penalty. People who truly believe abortion is murder would never let such a moral crime stand legally. So what do you think the penalties should be?

[quote]Did you ever wonder how it is, that Abraham Lincoln go us into a war where 600,000 men were killed, while Europe and other nations outlawed slavery without firing a shot?

Also keep in mind, the majority of people, even those in the South, opposed slavery.
[/quote]
Are you sure about that? You should probably get more familiar with the history of slavery in America and around the world before making such statements.

[quote]If we're going to outlaw abortion, lets not take up arms and go to war over it as some have done because after all, its murder.[/quote]
Did America have a second civil war and I missed it?