And There You Have It. We All Are Paying For The "morning After&#3

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1265652257' post='2053414']
Well at one time the Church did address points of law and in fact, prescribed the punishments that could or could not be used in enforcing laws, such as heresy. However, the Church has evolved since then. [/quote]
The Church did weigh in on unjust penalties (and I am aware of proclamations regarding the burning of heretics). She still does. But She needn't prescribe punishments and never has had any such obligation. Try not dodging the issue. Just admit you think abortion should be illegal. Have some guts.

[quote]
The difference between [s]abortion [/s]slavery and other immoral acts, is that [s]abortion [/s] slavery isn't accepted as an immoral act by the majority of society, [s]especially in the early stages[/s]. [s]The use of the morning after pill, few in society who are not Catholic have a problem with it. [/s]
Jim
[/quote]
I can substitute any number of crimes in place of abortion. Your morality is not Catholic. The Church has never argued in favor of majority rule in matters of intrinsic evil. There's probably a Unitarian church you could join.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1265652257' post='2053414']
Well at one time the Church did address points of law and in fact, prescribed the punishments that could or could not be used in enforcing laws, such as heresy. However, the Church has evolved since then.

The difference between abortion and other immoral acts, is that abortion isn't accepted as an immoral act by the majority of society, especially in the early stages. The use of the morning after pill, few in society who are not Catholic have a problem with it.

So the bottom line is, how are you going to outlaw these things without prescribing what the punishment should be?

You can't, and neither can Bishops or politicians, which is why these things will never be outlawed. Most of the Bishops know this, and most have taken a different approach rather than banning people from receiving Holy Communion.


Jim
[/quote]
Jim,

Bernie Madoff was sentenced to 150 years in federal prison for his role in massive financial fraud.
A couple years ago in Calgary there was a bizarre random attack that left a man stabbed to death. The killer, who was a minor, will spend a total of less than three years in prison due to double time served before sentencing, easy chance of parole, etc..

Does that made Mr. Madoff's crime more wrong due to the penalty? Your arguments seem to imply that the morality of an act somehow is related to the punishment for breaking it.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 February 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1265562010' post='2052511']
No, he tries to be a bishop by informing nominal "Catholics" what *real* Catholics believe. If Kennedy is really a Catholic, he should have known that voting for abortion is grounds for excommunication.


Please point out where I advocated life in prison as punishment for abortion. Don't even equivocate. Point it out or retract your statement.
[/quote]


[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 12:07 PM' timestamp='1265652476' post='2053419']
Again, it is you who used the term, "real Catholics," to distinguish from one group,(the one you agree with) to those you don't. I'm just reading what you posted.

Jim
[/quote]
You must have missed that part of junior high about reading comprehension.

*Real* Catholics do indeed believe that formal support of abortion carries the penalty of automatic excommunication. This is a fact which cannot be debated. Nominal Catholics often don't care. I call them nominal, rather than real, because if you don't believe Catholic doctrine, you aren't really a Catholic, no matter what you call yourself.

Also, I'm still waiting for you pointing out where I advocated life in prison as punishment for a woman having an abortion.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 February 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1265652623' post='2053424']
Jim,

Bernie Madoff was sentenced to 150 years in federal prison for his role in massive financial fraud.
A couple years ago in Calgary there was a bizarre random attack that left a man stabbed to death. The killer, who was a minor, will spend a total of less than three years in prison due to double timed served before sentencing, etc..

Does that made Mr. Madoff's crime more wrong due to the penalty? Your arguments seem to imply that the morality of an act somehow is related to the punishment for breaking it.
[/quote]


I don't know the mitigating circumstances behind the minor who stabbed the man.

We know whoMadoff is and what he did. He's also an adult where the other is a minor.



The point is whether or not society believes a particular act is immoral enough to make it criminal.

Early term abortions, the majority of the world, not just the US, do not believe it should be illegal, never mind if there should be punishment for it or not.

We Catholics believe that abortion is an intrinsic moral evil. However, we have to accept that we are not the law, nor can we make the law without the rest of society accepting it.

If abortion were to be made illegal, there has to be a penalty for those who obtain or perform abortions. Without a penalty, the law is meaningless and would be ignored.

When a Bishop tells a politician, that he must work to make abortion illegal, he then must at least suggest to the politician what they penalty should be, for those who break the law. You don't have to be a lawyer to say what the punishment should be, especially if you're the one who is demanding that a law be made.



Jim

Edited February 8, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1265652257' post='2053414']
So the bottom line is, how are you going to outlaw these things without prescribing what the punishment should be?
[/quote]
No, Jim, the bottom line is you reject the standing excommunications issued by the Church due to a non-Catholic understanding of the nature of law and justice.

You would do well to shut up listen to what Nihil and Apotheoun can teach you. I don't give a croutons how old you are or what your past is, you don't know diddly about morality and you've illustrated that from the moment you showed up, whining that you got your hand slapped for heterodoxy elsewhere. You're fortunate to have found this place to correct your errors.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1265653178' post='2053433']
I don't know the mitigating circumstances behind the minor who stabbed the man.

We know whoMadoff is and what he did. He's also an adult where the other is a minor.



The point is whether or not society believes a particular act is immoral enough to make it criminal.

Early term abortions, the majority of the world, not just the US, do not believe it should be illegal, never mind if there should be punishment for it or not.

We Catholics believe that abortion is an intrinsic moral evil. However, we have to accept that we are not the law, nor can we make the law without the rest of society accepting it.

If abortion were to be made illegal, there has to be a penalty for those who obtain or perform abortions. Without a penalty, the law is meaningless and would be ignored.

When a Bishop tells a politician, that he must work to make abortion illegal, he then must at least suggest to the politician what they penalty should be, for those who break the law. You don't have to be a lawyer to say what the punishment should be, especially if you're the one who is demanding that a law be made.



Jim
[/quote]
Way to avoid the question. Let's make it even easier. For first degree murder in Canada a person may get 25 years in prison. That's with zero mitigating circumstances. A guy gets up one day and decides he's going to kill his friend just for kicks. Bernie Madoff got 150. Doe society find Madoff's crime more wrong than the murderer's?

[JimR-OCDS]

Nihil Obstat

[quote]
You must have missed that part of junior high about reading comprehension.

*Real* Catholics do indeed believe that formal support of abortion carries the penalty of automatic excommunication. This is a fact which cannot be debated. Nominal Catholics often don't care. I call them nominal, rather than real, because if you don't believe Catholic doctrine, you aren't really a Catholic, no matter what you call yourself.
[/quote]

Well you state that "if" Kennedy was a real Catholic, he wouldn't have voted for abortion. Well he didn't, its not what the issue between him and the Bishop was about. In fact, abortion was legal long before Patrick Kennedy got into politics.

[quote]
Also, I'm still waiting for you pointing out where I advocated life in prison as punishment for a woman having an abortion.
[/quote]

If you believe abortion is murder, than should not the punishment be equal to that of muder?

I asked the question, I didn't intend to say that's what you advocate.

But please answer the question.

If you believe abortion is murder and abortion could be made illegal if you had it your way, what should the penalty be for women and doctors who break the law?

Jim

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1265653800' post='2053446']
Well you state that "if" Kennedy was a real Catholic, he wouldn't have voted for abortion. Well he didn't, its not what the issue between him and the Bishop was about. In fact, abortion was legal long before Patrick Kennedy got into politics.
[/quote]
Is English your first language?

A minus? If you weren't wondering if there's a reading comprehension issue, then you weren't paying attention or you have one yourself.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Winchester

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 February 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1265653445' post='2053437']
Way to avoid the question. Let's make it even easier. For first degree murder in Canada a person may get 25 years in prison. That's with zero mitigating circumstances. A guy gets up one day and decides he's going to kill his friend just for kicks. Bernie Madoff got 150. Doe society find Madoff's crime more wrong than the murderer's?
[/quote]


I didn't avoid the question, I gave you the answer you just chose to ignore it or failed to understand it.

Well first off, you're taking Canada, Madoff committed the crime in the USA.

A person who commits murder here in the USA, gets life or in some cases, death. If he's a minor, he may end up being tried as an adult, depending on the mitigating circumstances.

Here in the US, punishment for murder is most often greater than crimes of theft. In Madoff's case, he'll die in prison even if he got 25 years. The 150 year sentence was to make a statement about the crime committed.


Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Winchester' date='08 February 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1265654044' post='2053452']
Is English your first language?
[/quote]


[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]


Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1265653800' post='2053446']
Nihil Obstat



Well you state that "if" Kennedy was a real Catholic, he wouldn't have voted for abortion. Well he didn't, its not what the issue between him and the Bishop was about. In fact, abortion was legal long before Patrick Kennedy got into politics.



If you believe abortion is murder, than should not the punishment be equal to that of muder?

I asked the question, I didn't intend to say that's what you advocate.

But please answer the question.

If you believe abortion is murder and abortion could be made illegal if you had it your way, what should the penalty be for women and doctors who break the law?

Jim
[/quote]
RE: Kennedy
It doesn't matter that abortion was already legal. Kennedy has formally supported abortion in the past. As a Catholic, he is automatically excommunicated. Clearly he's missed a lot of his education in Catholic beliefs, so at the very best I'll call him a nominal Catholic. Certainly not what should be called a real Catholic.
RE: Penalties for abortion
First off, the penalty is irrelevant to the morality. You are implying that because we have no advocated a particular penalty, we have no grounds to morally oppose its continuing legality. This is ridiculous and not even worthy of a response. Unfortunately I'm a sucker so I'm going to respond anyway. If I "had my druthers", as you so quaintly put it, to begin with I would push a manslaughter penalty onto the woman, first degree murder for the abortionist, and some sort of aiding and abetting for anyone who pressured the woman. Abortion has been pushed as a "right" for so long that many people simply have a broken moral compass. I consider this a somewhat mitigating circumstance. The penalties would become progressively more severe as society began to accept that abortion is indeed illegal. Abortionists would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of first degree murder, and societal attitudes would become less and less of a mitigating circumstance.
HOWEVER my personal views on how abortion could be punished are perfectly irrelevant to my belief that abortion must be illegal. As I said before, this strange argument of yours is so ludicrous that it really doesn't deserve a response from any rational person. I guess I'm just humouring you.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1265654191' post='2053455']
I didn't avoid the question, I gave you the answer you just chose to ignore it or failed to understand it.

Well first off, you're taking Canada, Madoff committed the crime in the USA.

A person who commits murder here in the USA, gets life or in some cases, death. If he's a minor, he may end up being tried as an adult, depending on the mitigating circumstances.

Here in the US, punishment for murder is most often greater than crimes of theft. In Madoff's case, he'll die in prison even if he got 25 years. The 150 year sentence was to make a statement about the crime committed.


Jim
[/quote]
RE: Madoff

Let's assume he would have received 150 years if he committed the crime in Canada too. This is perfectly reasonable.
Let's also assume that if he was 25 and committed the same massive fraud, he would have received the same sentence. This is also reasonable.

Now, has our hypothetical fraudulent investor committed a "worse" crime than our hypothetical remorseless Canadian first degree murderer?

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1265654246' post='2053457']
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]


Jim
[/quote]
Holy croutons. That indicates humor. I am surprised.

[MIKolbe]

in case we need to measure the obtuse-ness....

[img]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n129/corsetti3/protractor.gif[/img]

[Winchester]

Anger is clouding my reason. Time to take a break.