And There You Have It. We All Are Paying For The "morning After&#3

[Winchester]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 February 2010 - 12:20 AM' timestamp='1265520027' post='2052310']
[img]http://www.red-october.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/pioneer.jpg[/img]
?
[/quote]
That about sums it up. What we've got here is the fallout from JFK's idiotic comments about his Catholicity. One cannot hold firm to the faith and yet permit laws that deny human rights. It's not Catholic, "spiritually evolved" or tolerant.

Bishops needn't excommunicate those Catholics who support abortion--they're already excommunicated. But it's good when they make it clear for the rest of us.

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='07 February 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1265559458' post='2052487']
For a Bishop to threaten a Catholic Politician with excommunication for his votes in Congress, is a problem.

Its why few Bishops have taken the course Bishop Tobin has. They understand that the legislative process is complex and not every vote is in fact a vote to directly support abortion.


Jim
[/quote]
It's already done, Jim. Latae sententiae. But you're spiritually evolved so you understand it's okay to compromise to satisfy a rider or some other political gain.

[Winchester]

Four in a row. I reckon that catches me up to Nihil.

Five. Five in a row.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='07 February 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1265562412' post='2052520']
So, Bishops who have not excommunicated Catholic Politicians aren't real Catholics?


If abortion is murder, the punishment for murder here in most states is life in prison.

So what would be different about abortion, that it wouldn't carry the same punishment as murder?


Jim
[/quote]
Once again you put words into my mouth. Point out to me where I have said these things, or else take it back immediately. I'm getting sick of this.
If you want to know my opinion, ask me. Don't just make up something and pretend I support it. It's dishonest and stupid.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 February 2010 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1265570415' post='2052596']
Once again you put words into my mouth. Point out to me where I have said these things, or else take it back immediately. I'm getting sick of this.
If you want to know my opinion, ask me. Don't just make up something and pretend I support it. It's dishonest and stupid.
[/quote]


Your the one who use the term, "real Catholics," thereby implying those who don't agree with you
aren't real Catholics.

If you don't like such ridiculous terms thrown back at you, don't use them.

Jim

Edited February 8, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Winchester' date='07 February 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1265563623' post='2052527']
A Catholic cannot support the legalization of abortion and must attempt to make it illegal. There's no out for "democracy".

Your argument justifies a great many things even the most liberal moron "catholic" doesn't support.
[/quote]


A Catholic can not promote or support abortion. However, making it illegal requires points of law
the Church has failed to address, i.e. what should be the penalty for those who break the law.

Jim

[MIKolbe]

Has the Church addressed 'points of law' for every other 'crime'? If so, why not just use the 'points of law' the Church has address for murder (other than abortion)? If the Church has not addressed the 'points of law' for every other 'crime', why must it for abortion?

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 08:58 AM' timestamp='1265637492' post='2053289']
A Catholic can not promote or support abortion. However, making it illegal requires points of law
the Church has failed to address, i.e. what should be the penalty for those who break the law.

Jim
[/quote]
The Church does not have to ascribe legal penalties. She has never done this and is under no obligation to do so. I don't know who gave you that idea, but that person is wrong, and using it as an excuse.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 07:56 AM' timestamp='1265637386' post='2053288']
Your the one who use the term, "real Catholics," thereby implying those who don't agree with you
aren't real Catholics.

If you don't like such ridiculous terms thrown back at you, don't use them.

Jim
[/quote]
So in other words you're attributing positions to me based on your own enlightened imagination? You are ridiculous. That's twice now that you can't substantiate your accusations.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='07 February 2010 - 09:31 AM' timestamp='1265553097' post='2052444']
No it wouldn't. Over turning Roe V Wade would merely send it back to the states for them to decide.
Look at your local state politicians. Could any one of them run on a campaign to make abortion illegal?
In my state, they'd be easily defeated.[/quote]
There was a time when it was difficult for politicians supporting the abolition of slavery too. I'm sure politicians in southern states would have been easily defeated too. None of it means the crime against humanity should have stood because it was too difficult to abolish slavery.

[quote]Why would the punishment fall just on the doctor? Without the woman seeking the abortion, its a mute point. Also, keep in mind that as
you're preparing to throw doctors in jail for performing abortions, you'd be throwing Jewish and Muslim doctors in jail, who do not believe
abortion in the pre-viable stages are immoral. So now, you're forcing Catholic doctrine onto others who don't follow Catholicism. If you allow this, well, then whats to stop Muslims from imposing Sharia laws onto our society?[/quote]
You are wrong about the Jewish and Muslim stance on abortion. A majority of both traditions do not support abortion as birth control, which is 98% of all abortions.

The punishment should fall on the doctor without question. What should happen to the woman is an implementation detail. In fact, it's all implementation details. The rightness or wrongness of a law is not rooted in its enforceability.

[quote]Currently there are penalties for late term abortions. Because society in general, sees this as immoral, except when the mother's life is
at stake.[/quote]
Restrictions or outright prohibition varies state to state.

[quote]Ah but the Bishop are mandating that the government make abortion illegal.

They are mandating something they don't know how to put into law themselves, so how can they make the mandate on others?[/quote]
Your issue with the bishop was he was in a "gotcha" moment and was unable to give legal advice on how to implement a prohibition on abortion. My response was that the bishop is not responsible for the legal details just as clergy against slavery in the U.S. and those for civil rights in the 60s were not responsible for developing the implementation details to right those wrongs. They speak for moral law, especially when violated. It's up to the citizens to decide the best approach to making things right. To brush away the pro-life effort with the excuse "Well, there's no way to fairly fix this injustice so let it stand." is unacceptable.

[quote]The issue becomes a separation of Church and State, when it comes to making law. To use the threat of excommunication against
Catholic politicians on the issue of abortion, is in fact forcing Catholic doctrine into the laws of our nation. Its why we will never
see laws outlawing abortion in the pre-viable stage, because there is really no way to make a law with enforceable consequences that
wouldn't seem barbaric.

If abortion is murder, as the pro-life people always say it is, then the consequences have to be the same as at least manslaughter and that would mean jail time for both women and doctors. We will never see it.[/quote]
Catholic doctrine also says stealing is wrong. Maybe we should repeal all laws against theft lest someone claim the pope is forcing Catholic doctrine on America.

The consequences do not have to be the same as law handles the death of someone by another in many various ways, typically based on circumstances.

[Winchester]

bizarre response in 5, 4, 3, 2...

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='08 February 2010 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1265652075' post='2053412']
bizarre response in 5, 4, 3, 2...
[/quote]
I predict that he will accuse kamiller of supporting the death penalty for theft.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='08 February 2010 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1265637941' post='2053293']
Has the Church addressed 'points of law' for every other 'crime'? If so, why not just use the 'points of law' the Church has address for murder (other than abortion)? If the Church has not addressed the 'points of law' for every other 'crime', why must it for abortion?
[/quote]

Well at one time the Church did address points of law and in fact, prescribed the punishments that could or could not be used in enforcing laws, such as heresy. However, the Church has evolved since then.

The difference between abortion and other immoral acts, is that abortion isn't accepted as an immoral act by the majority of society, especially in the early stages. The use of the morning after pill, few in society who are not Catholic have a problem with it.

So the bottom line is, how are you going to outlaw these things without prescribing what the punishment should be?

You can't, and neither can Bishops or politicians, which is why these things will never be outlawed. Most of the Bishops know this, and most have taken a different approach rather than banning people from receiving Holy Communion.


Jim

[Winchester]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 February 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1265652159' post='2053413']
I predict that he will accuse kamiller of supporting the death penalty for theft.
[/quote]
I'll take that action.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 February 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1265649063' post='2053364']
So in other words you're attributing positions to me based on your own enlightened imagination? You are ridiculous. That's twice now that you can't substantiate your accusations.
[/quote]

Again, it is you who used the term, "real Catholics," to distinguish from one group,(the one you agree with) to those you don't. I'm just reading what you posted.

Jim