And There You Have It. We All Are Paying For The "morning After&#3

[Winchester]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 February 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1265492655' post='2052145']
Bishop Tobin, incompetent?

Don't go there. Don't even try it.
[/quote]
Well, the Bishop's position contradicts Pope Kennedy, so it can't possibly be right, can it?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Winchester' date='06 February 2010 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1265503868' post='2052208']
Well, the Bishop's position contradicts Pope Kennedy, so it can't possibly be right, can it?
[/quote]
[img]http://www.red-october.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/pioneer.jpg[/img]
?

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 February 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1265492655' post='2052145']
Bishop Tobin, incompetent?

Don't go there. Don't even try it.
[/quote]

On the program yes, he was incompetent in answering the question on how legislation to ban abortion should be
written, in particular what penalty should be imposed on women who obtain abortions.

The Bishop is very competent on theology, but not law.

He couldn't answer the questions on how to make a law banning abortions.


Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

kamiller42

[quote]
1. Overturning Roe v. Wade would not make abortion illegal.
[/quote]

No it wouldn't. Over turning Roe V Wade would merely send it back to the states for them to decide.
Look at your local state politicians. Could any one of them run on a campaign to make abortion illegal?
In my state, they'd be easily defeated.

[quote]
2. Assuming it is overturned and states make abortion illegal, the penalties would more than likely fall on the doctor and pretend doctors. Abortion was illegal in America at one time. There is a wealth of legal history that can be tapped to determine what penalties would ensue for killing an unborn.
[/quote]

Why would the punishment fall just on the doctor? Without the woman seeking the abortion, its a mute point. Also, keep in mind that as
you're preparing to throw doctors in jail for performing abortions, you'd be throwing Jewish and Muslim doctors in jail, who do not believe
abortion in the pre-viable stages are immoral. So now, you're forcing Catholic doctrine onto others who don't follow Catholicism. If you allow this, well, then whats to stop Muslims from imposing Sharia laws onto our society?

[quote]
3. Prohibition on the killing of the unborn would have consequences. The presence of a debate about what those consequences are does not eliminate the presence of consequences.
[/quote]

Currently there are penalties for late term abortions. Because society in general, sees this as immoral, except when the mother's life is
at stake.

[quote]
4. It is not the bishop's job to decide the implementation of civil law. He is not a lawyer or legislature. It is up to politicians to develop civil law which satisfies moral law.
[/quote]

Ah but the Bishop are mandating that the government make abortion illegal.

They are mandating something they don't know how to put into law themselves, so how can they make the mandate on others?

The issue becomes a separation of Church and State, when it comes to making law. To use the threat of excommunication against
Catholic politicians on the issue of abortion, is in fact forcing Catholic doctrine into the laws of our nation. Its why we will never
see laws outlawing abortion in the pre-viable stage, because there is really no way to make a law with enforceable consequences that
wouldn't seem barbaric.

If abortion is murder, as the pro-life people always say it is, then the consequences have to be the same as at least manslaughter and that would mean jail time for both women and doctors. We will never see it.

The best course is to educate women about the reality of abortion. The less women seeking abortion, the less abortion agencies can make off it, and they will eventually give it up.

Planned Parenthood could not survive without providing abortions on a large scale. They certainly should not be supported with taxpayer dollars as they currently are. This we can change through legislation, if we have politicians with the courage to do so.

Jim

[KeenanParkerII]

The Church doesn't urge people by threat of excommunication--it urges people by pointing out that it is immoral. Excommunication is a response or a consequent to that immoral action. We should prohibit abortion because it's wrong, but because of fear of excommunication.

What does it matter of there are Jewish, Muslim or even Catholic doctors put in jail as a result? The anti-abortion movement may stem from a religious ideal, but so is just about every other political/cultural ideal.. America's still a democracy right?

[JimR-OCDS]

KeenanParkerII

[quote]
The Church doesn't urge people by threat of excommunication--it urges people by pointing out that it is immoral. Excommunication is a response or a consequent to that immoral action. We should prohibit abortion because it's wrong, but because of fear of excommunication.
[/quote]

Bishop Tobin told Rep Patrick Kennedy, that he should not receive Holy Communion for his stand on abortion issues.
Kennedy made the debate between himself and the Bishop public, but its the reason Bishop Tobin ended up on the
Chris Matthews show.

[quote]
What does it matter of there are Jewish, Muslim or even Catholic doctors put in jail as a result?
[/quote]

It matters from a point of law, because Jews and Muslims don't follow nor accept Catholic teaching on the issue.


[quote]
The anti-abortion movement may stem from a religious ideal, but so is just about every other political/cultural ideal.. America's still a democracy right?
[/quote]

Well we're a republic, not a democracy. We elect representatives through a democratic process and those representatives represent
the will of their constituents, within Congress. Being such, they represent everyone, not just Catholics. So, for them to make a law that would throw Jewish and Muslim doctors who perform abortions into jail, would be against their beliefs. This just isn't going to happen.

For a Bishop to threaten a Catholic Politician with excommunication for his votes in Congress, is a problem.

Its why few Bishops have taken the course Bishop Tobin has. They understand that the legislative process is complex and not every vote is in fact a vote to directly support abortion.


Jim

[KeenanParkerII]

That's a crazy stance Jim. I don't agree with lending money at interest, but I'll get thrown in jail if I refuse to make payments on interest simply because it doesn't jive with my belief system. If anti-abortion laws are passed based on Christian principles, who cares if a minority of people disagree? That isn't the way the system works, even a republic.

As Christians, we claim exclusivity. What is right for Christians is right for the whole world. Period.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='07 February 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1265560539' post='2052492']
That's a crazy stance Jim. I don't agree with lending money at interest, but I'll get thrown in jail if I refuse to make payments on interest simply because it doesn't jive with my belief system. If anti-abortion laws are passed based on Christian principles, who cares if a minority of people disagree? That isn't the way the system works, even a republic.

As Christians, we claim exclusivity. What is right for Christians is right for the whole world. Period.
[/quote]

The point is, not all Christians, nor the majority of Americans believe that the government should ban abortions in the early stages of
a pregnancy, generally 1st term. There is definitely no major consensus on the morning after pill. Most think it should be made available, even
with taxpayer dollars. So what should politicians do, if they are representing their constituents? I would vote my conscience, and suffer the consequences of being voted out of office if need be. But then, not all of my state reps are Catholic.

The numbers significantly change after viability, which is why partial birth abortions were outlawed, even here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='07 February 2010 - 08:16 AM' timestamp='1265552195' post='2052442']
On the program yes, he was incompetent in answering the question on how legislation to ban abortion should be
written, in particular what penalty should be imposed on women who obtain abortions.

The Bishop is very competent on theology, but not law.

He couldn't answer the questions on how to make a law banning abortions.


Jim
[/quote]
Good thing he's a bishop and not a lawyer.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='07 February 2010 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1265561312' post='2052497']
The point is, not all Christians, nor the majority of Americans believe that the government should ban abortions in the early stages of
a pregnancy, generally 1st term. There is definitely no major consensus on the morning after pill. Most think it should be made available, even
with taxpayer dollars. So what should politicians do, if they are representing their constituents? I would vote my conscience, and suffer the consequences of being voted out of office if need be. But then, not all of my state reps are Catholic.

The numbers significantly change after viability, which is why partial birth abortions were outlawed, even here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts.

Jim
[/quote]
No matter what everyone believes, it's still murder. I don't care if in ten years there are zero Americans who believe abortion is murder, it'll still be the obligation of Catholics everywhere to oppose it. If other people don't agree, or don't believe as we do, tough luck; I'm not going to condone murder for the sake of not offending anyone.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 February 2010 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1265561535' post='2052502']
Good thing he's a bishop and not a lawyer.
[/quote]


But he tries to be a lawyer by dictating to politicians on how they should legislate.


Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 February 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1265561665' post='2052503']
No matter what everyone believes, it's still murder. I don't care if in ten years there are zero Americans who believe abortion is murder, it'll still be the obligation of Catholics everywhere to oppose it. If other people don't agree, or don't believe as we do, tough luck; I'm not going to condone murder for the sake of not offending anyone.
[/quote]


Then if you had your druthers, you would make abortion illegal, and those who violate the law, would be punished for murder, i.e.
life in prison?

I tell you what, you won't see one Bishop nor even the Pope suggest that such a law should be enforced this way.

Jim

Edited February 7, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='07 February 2010 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1265561678' post='2052504']
But he tries to be a lawyer by dictating to politicians on how they should legislate.


Jim
[/quote]
No, he tries to be a bishop by informing nominal "Catholics" what *real* Catholics believe. If Kennedy is really a Catholic, he should have known that voting for abortion is grounds for excommunication.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='07 February 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1265561759' post='2052507']
Then if you had your druthers, you would make abortion illegal, and those who violate the law, would be punished for murder, i.e.
life in prison?

I tell you what, you won't see one Bishop nor even the Pope suggest that such a law should be enforced this way.

Jim
[/quote]
Please point out where I advocated life in prison as punishment for abortion. Don't even equivocate. Point it out or retract your statement.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 February 2010 - 01:00 PM' timestamp='1265562010' post='2052511']
No, he tries to be a bishop by informing nominal "Catholics" what *real* Catholics believe. If Kennedy is really a Catholic, he should have known that voting for abortion is grounds for excommunication.


Please point out where I advocated life in prison as punishment for abortion. Don't even equivocate. Point it out or retract your statement.
[/quote]

So, Bishops who have not excommunicated Catholic Politicians aren't real Catholics?


If abortion is murder, the punishment for murder here in most states is life in prison.

So what would be different about abortion, that it wouldn't carry the same punishment as murder?


Jim

Edited February 7, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='07 February 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1265559458' post='2052487']
Well we're a republic, not a democracy. We elect representatives through a democratic process and those representatives represent
the will of their constituents, within Congress. Being such, they represent everyone, not just Catholics. So, for them to make a law that would throw Jewish and Muslim doctors who perform abortions into jail, would be against their beliefs. This just isn't going to happen.
[/quote]
A Catholic cannot support the legalization of abortion and must attempt to make it illegal. There's no out for "democracy".

Your argument justifies a great many things even the most liberal moron "catholic" doesn't support.